FB: Region 4 fan poll

[FCGrizzliesGrad]

I'll confess to having a couple of the interesting spots. I put North Central (2) ahead of Wabash (3) because I'm more impressed with results from NC compared to Wabash so far. Of course once we get some more games in then I may swap them.
I also kept Wheaton (5) ahead of Albion (6). They're really close as well but a 1 point come from behind win at home isn't quite enough to jump them when I had them 12th last week.

[wally_wabash]

I also kept Wheaton (5) ahead of Albion (6). They're really close as well but a 1 point come from behind win at home isn't quite enough to jump them when I had them 12th last week.

This fascinates me.  Reverse the roles...if Wheaton had come from behind and scored late to win by one point, would we have even considered placing Albion ahead of Wheaton?  Of course we wouldn't have.  But why not?  How can we so easily talk ourselves out of believing what actually happened?

[NCF]

I also kept Wheaton (5) ahead of Albion (6). They're really close as well but a 1 point come from behind win at home isn't quite enough to jump them when I had them 12th last week.

This fascinates me.  Reverse the roles...if Wheaton had come from behind and scored late to win by one point, would we have even considered placing Albion ahead of Wheaton?  Of course we wouldn't have.  But why not?  How can we so easily talk ourselves out of believing what actually happened?

Probably because he believes Wheaton is the better team. He is entitled to his opinion however even if everyone else on the boards were to disagree with him.

[wally_wabash]

I also kept Wheaton (5) ahead of Albion (6). They're really close as well but a 1 point come from behind win at home isn't quite enough to jump them when I had them 12th last week.

This fascinates me.  Reverse the roles...if Wheaton had come from behind and scored late to win by one point, would we have even considered placing Albion ahead of Wheaton?  Of course we wouldn't have.  But why not?  How can we so easily talk ourselves out of believing what actually happened?

Probably because he believes Wheaton is the better team. He is entitled to his opinion however even if everyone else on the boards were to disagree with him.

Just trying to understand the thought process.  Albion was better than Wheaton by pretty much every measure.  Better offense, better on 3rd down, way better on defense (Albion 8 sacks, Wheaton zero...that is significant), dominated the clock, and oh by the way, scored more points.  The only thing, as far as I can tell, that Albion wasn't better at than Wheaton on Saturday was reputation.  CCIW>MIAA.  Is it that simple?  Again, not criticizing, just trying to understand different philosophies. 

[ExTartanPlayer]

wally, I think it's one of those philosophical beliefs about rankings.  Some people stick strictly to on-field results, others are more comfortable trying to project the "future" and/or the "theoretical" (i.e. what if these teams played on a neutral field tomorrow?).

I've seen the "come from behind win at home" logic before, and I'll admit that home-field advantage is a legitimate consideration.  I presume, FCGrizzlies, that you're saying that if either a) Albion had won by a greater margin or b) Albion had won on a neutral field or at Wheaton then you would have ranked Albion higher.  I can dig that.  Howefer, wally makes some interesting points that Albion dominated the game statistically, which (in my mind) should also count for something.

Wally, I know you adhere very strictly to "If Team X scored more points than Team Y on Day Z, all other things being equal, then Team X should be ranked higher."  That's fine (and is generally the camp that I fall into as well) but I'm also fine with people who want to consider things like home-field advantage, ease of victory, and injuries as part of the ranking process.  Different strokes for different folks.

[Mr. Ypsi]

With all the chaos, I'm amazed that my ballot was as close to matching the final poll is is possible!  (I had Witt 7 and BW 8; I initially had Franklin 9 and Heidi 10, but just before I sent it I decided I just couldn't include an 0-2 team [with both losses by large margins] regardless of the opponents - I dropped Franklin and moved Heidi to 9, with Case at 10.  I have little doubt that Franklin will soon return to my ballot, but 0-2 is 0-2!)

[FCGrizzliesGrad]

I also kept Wheaton (5) ahead of Albion (6). They're really close as well but a 1 point come from behind win at home isn't quite enough to jump them when I had them 12th last week.

This fascinates me.  Reverse the roles...if Wheaton had come from behind and scored late to win by one point, would we have even considered placing Albion ahead of Wheaton?  Of course we wouldn't have.  But why not?  How can we so easily talk ourselves out of believing what actually happened?

Probably because he believes Wheaton is the better team. He is entitled to his opinion however even if everyone else on the boards were to disagree with him.

Just trying to understand the thought process.  Albion was better than Wheaton by pretty much every measure.  Better offense, better on 3rd down, way better on defense (Albion 8 sacks, Wheaton zero...that is significant), dominated the clock, and oh by the way, scored more points.  The only thing, as far as I can tell, that Albion wasn't better at than Wheaton on Saturday was reputation.  CCIW>MIAA.  Is it that simple?  Again, not criticizing, just trying to understand different philosophies.

I must be looking at different stats than you. I would say Albion was just slightly better, but not by much. Albion had 28 yards more offense... converted two 3rd downs more on 2 more attempts... I will admit to not seeing the number of sacks before, but I will counter that they missed 2 extra points including one that was blocked.

I wouldn't pick UL-Monroe ahead of Arkansas either even though ULM beat them and were far superior to Arkansas stats-wise compared to Albion over Wheaton.

We haven't had much to yell at this season in this poll... glad to finally get things stirred up

[smedindy]

I am the one that still has Witt #3. Their win over Cap made me a semi-believer. Of course, things will settle out. I gave Franklin a pass thus far but a lackluster performance or two will give me pause. The muddle of the OAC and CCIW will resolve itself so my rankings are darts (and I was the one who pegged Carthage at #10, because, well, who knows).

I may be of the thought that Carnegie Mellon could be the best UAA team and not Case.

[HSCTiger74]

You guys have a tough job this early. 

Albion beating Wheaton definitely mucks things up quite a bit, as does North Central's loss.  It will be very hard to sort of the CCIW triangle until they actually play one another.

Franklin will also be hard to place until the playoffs, frankly.  Even if they run the table in the HCAC, without many games against common opponents, how can you really figure out where they belong?

If B-W and Heidelberg both hold serve throughout the OAC season, their matchup in the last week of the regular season will be fascinating...but it also means it might be tough to place them in these rankings for a while unless somebody drops one along the way.

Probably not going to figure out exactly where Witt belongs until 9/29 (CWRU) and 10/6 (Wabash), but those two results will help sort things out a bit.

I think that "fascinating" may be an understatement, because for this scenario to come about both teams would have to beat Mt. Union. Maybe (very heavy emphasis on maybe) one of them will, but I don't see both of them doing it. Just an outsider's two cents.

[Pat Coleman]

He may be considering losing to Mount Union as holding serve, as few people expect Mount Union to lose an OAC game.

[short]

I have Heidelberg 3rd.  I truly think they are the 3rd best team in the North.  They return 18 starts off a team that has gotten better every year since Mike Halletts got there.  In 2011 they beat a team (Capital) 55-3 that BW lost to (14-11).  BW returns just 2 starts off last years Defense.  Heidelberg in my opinon is a Top 10 team in all of D3.  After that it gets really hard.  I might have IWU low at 8, might have Franklin high at 4.  However, I am not sure how others would have done vs Butler and MU.  The Middle is the Middle (Albion, NC, Wheaton, IWU) and I had BW at 9th but I don't think they should be that high.  Time has all the answers!  But, I have one answers... Heidelberg is really really GOOD!

[HSCTiger74]

He may be considering losing to Mount Union as holding serve, as few people expect Mount Union to lose an OAC game.

Good point ... I hadn't thought of it that way.

[jknezek]

Think about it this way, this board is way more fun than the South Region fan poll which has 1-4 the same with all voters and almost no commentary. Which would you rather? Have fun discussing and defending, or be pretty much homogeneous with no interest?

[wally_wabash]

short-

Others are probably thinking similarly, but for me Heidelberg would have a lot more inertia if Woods was still there.  They definitely showed well against Alma, which means about as much or as little as anybody wants it to.  The 'Berg can get some serious traction on my ballot if they do well in Ada on Saturday. 

I'll go a step further here...I've got Franklin 9 and Heidelberg 10 at the moment.  If Heidelberg handles ONU on the road, they'll definitely shimmy in front of Franklin on my ballot next week and maybe Wittenberg depending on what they do with  DePauw.  B-W would also be a team that is ripe for a major readjustment from me if they don't show well on Saturday.  Needless to say, my ballot is pretty fluid at the moment.   

[FCGrizzliesGrad]

if you look at the D3F Top 25 poll... here's what they say... I think I spotted all the north teams
1) Mount Union
2) Wabash
3) North Central
4) Baldwin-Wallace
5) Illinois Wesleyan
6) Wheaton
7) Franklin
8) Albion
9) Heidelberg
10) John Carroll

11) Carthage
12) Elmhurst
13) Wittenberg