FB: Region 4 fan poll

[Mr. Ypsi]

In bball, at least, starting this year, if at least 75% (?) of your games are traditional in-region, then ALL (d3) games are in region.  Not positive that that also holds for fball, but I think it does (and all other sports).  Pat?

If that is correct, then 'in-region' is no longer a consideration (since 90% of your games are in conference, and therefore traditional in-region).

[wally_wabash]

Just to clarify the Wabash vs. Hampden-Sydney series...it is regional as Virginia and Indiana are in the same administrative region.  Between the mileage rule, the geographic region boundaries, and the administrative regions, it's pretty hard to find non-regional games anymore.  Wabash's recent games with WashU were an odd exception particularly considering things like Witt/Huntingdon being regional. 

But then even beyond that, starting this season what Mr. Ypsi has relayed is also correct.  As long as you play most of your games in region, all of your in-division games will count for SOS purposes even if they aren't technically in-region. 

[ADL70]

Sheesh, why that qualifier?  Just dump the distinction, which with all the ways to qualify as in-region, no longer has any real meaning.

[jknezek]

HSC vs Wabash is not out of region based on the new definition. Both teams play 75 percent plus in D3.

[wabndy]

Sheesh, why that qualifier?  Just dump the distinction, which with all the ways to qualify as in-region, no longer has any real meaning.

We've discussed this before. The NCAA d3 sports world is bigger than football. It does make more sense in other sports.
There is something to be said for encouraging d3 schools not to overextend their budget trying to play all sports from one coast to the next. That, I gather, is the reason. However, it seems like the NCAA retreats farther and farther away from providing a disincentive to schedule non-region play.

[Mr. Ypsi]

The new rule does exactly what you want.  ALL d3 matches are in-region, IF you play at least 8 (of 10) within the region.  Allows teams to schedule whatever OOC matches they want (if they have the budget, and abide by the 75% rule).

For teams right on the edge of the regions, that can be important - allowing going over 200 miles into another region to still be counted.  Not all schools have a plethora of choices within their region, and may have closer choices in other regions (e.g., MIAA teams and Chicago area schools).

[smedindy]

Was the poll posted?

[ExTartanPlayer]

General question on what everyone thinks of the "once ranked, always ranked" clause in terms of giving teams results vs. RRO's.

The major pro that I see is it a big win should still be viewed as a big win even if the opponent slips a little bit the next week.  If Heidelberg beats John Carroll next week, it seems like they should get credit for that even if Mount beats JCU the following week and somehow JCU slips out of the final regional ranking.  JCU is an impressive team and a win over them should give you a boost even if they lose to Mount, finish 8-2, and drop from the final RR's, right?  Same could be said for NCC vs. Wheaton this week - if Wheaton drops to 8-2 and somehow slips from the final RR's, that still seems like it should count as a "quality win" to me.

The con is that the first set of RR's will be influenced by the sequence of scheduling, as we have hinted at before.  A particular conference will stand a good chance of getting two or three teams into the early RR's if your conference schedule happens to keep the three best teams apart until late in the season (as we've hinted with the OAC and CCIW this season); a side clause is that a sort-of-decent team might be ranked in the first RR's by virtue of a) going undefeated through an OOC schedule with no power teams and b) not playing the two best teams in their conference until the last two weeks.  Pacific in the NWC is a specific example here, currently sitting at 7-1 with games against 5-2 Willamette and ridiculously awesome Linfield yet to play.  Now I think Pacific is a fine team, and they have beaten Adrian, Occidental and Chicago in OOC play, all teams with winning records, so you can't accuse them of playing a really WEAK schedule, but nor have they played a really strong one either (and they've lost to the one really good team they played, although it was a one-point loss).  If they played Linfield two weeks ago and were 6-2 today with losses to PLU and Linfield, I think there's a good chance they don't get ranked at all.  Just one example of a team I expect to crack the RR's due to a scheduling quirk, thereby benefitting Pacific Lutheran and (presumably) Linfield since they will both get a win over a regionally-ranked Pacific team that otherwise may not have cracked the rankings.  Does that make sense?

I do like the "once ranked, always ranked" clause because I still think teams should get credit for beating "good" teams that don't quite end up in the final regional rankings, but I wanted to acknowledge that a bit of scheduling randomness will influence the first set of RR's, while the final RR's don't have that influence.

Just a stream of consciousness here.  Any thoughts?

[ExTartanPlayer]

And they're here!!!

http://www.d3blogs.com/d3football/2013/11/06/first-2013-ncaa-regional-rankings/

NORTH
The North Region rankings were released with conference record rather than Division III record printed.
1   Mount Union   7-0   8-0
2   North Central (Ill.)   5-0   8-0
3   Wabash   7-0   8-0
4   Wittenberg   7-0   7-1
5   John Carroll   8-0   8-0
6   Illinois Wesleyan   4-1   7-1
7   Franklin   6-0   6-2
8   Wheaton (Ill.)   4-1   7-1
9   Heidelberg   6-1   7-1
10   Hope   4-1   7-2

They got the IWU/Wheaton order right.

I find little that can REALLY be quibbled with here.  I think you can argue Franklin should be higher than IWU based on the fact that they have a closer loss to North #1 than IWU had against North #2, and possible that Wittenberg is overranked based on the common opponent with Butler (BUT that isn't supposed to count anyway).  Obviously the NCC/Wheaton, Berg/JCU, and Bash/Witt games will re-jigger this order by next week.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Franklin is 6-1, 6-2.

IWU's win over Wheaton is far more impressive than any of Franklin's wins, out-weighing the closer loss.

[wabndy]

disclosure - combined from several posts
1. Mount Union  (wins against RRO Franklin, Heidelberg)
2. North Central  (quality win against RRO IWU, better SOS than John Carroll)
3. Wabash   (Wabash's SOS edges John Carroll, could easly see 3 and 4 flipped, Witt: will post more on NCAC page).
4.  John Carroll  (Witt has better SOS, but 1 non D3 loss)
5.  Wittenberg  (see my post on NCAC page)
6. IWU  (tempted to rank them lower than Franklin b/c of NCC game, but strong SOS keems them here)
7. Wheaton  (loss to IWU, who lost to NCC pushed them low, but killer SOS keeps them here)
8. Franklin (played UMU closer than Heidelberg, better SOS than the princes, but 2 losses still hurts - will move up as the herd thins above)
9. Heidelberg  (low SOS, but can still pick up good claim to move way up the list with a win this weekend)
10. Albion (of the two loss teams, they have a slightly stronger SOS than Hope, a win over Olivet, and signifigantly stronger SOS than Benedictine or Concordia).

So I had JC and Witt flipped, Wheaton and Franklin flipped, and went with Albion over Hope for the lanterne rouge spot.  Makes sense given that the SOS between Albion and Hope is pretty darn close and Hope's RRO loss (IWU) is ranked higher than Albion's RRO loss (Wheaton). 

[bashbrother]

Even though these rankings will change with the upcoming games,  the North Region is really stacked with quality football teams in 2013.

[DPU3619]

I understand the logic, but if I'm Mike Leonard, I'm wondering else I have to do. I understand the Butler game never really happened in the eyes of the NCAA. Franklin can't control their conference. Wabash has fought that battle, too. The LGs can't do anything about the damage being in the NCAC has done to their resume recently. Franklin led the team who never loses in the regular season with 5 minutes to go. They haven't lost otherwise, yet they're 8th in the region.

Also, I have the ballots. I'll try to get that up tonight. If not, 1st thing in the morning.

[ExTartanPlayer]

I understand the logic, but if I'm Mike Leonard, I'm wondering else I have to do. I understand the Butler game never really happened in the eyes of the NCAA. Franklin can't control their conference. Wabash has fought that battle, too. The LGs can't do anything about the damage being in the NCAC has done to their resume recently. Franklin led the team who never loses in the regular season with 5 minutes to go. They haven't lost otherwise, yet they're 8th in the region.

Also, I have the ballots. I'll try to get that up tonight. If not, 1st thing in the morning.

Agreed.  What's funny is that either take on the Butler game (it counts vs. it doesn't count) should help Franklin, right?  If it never happened, then we say they're 6-1 with the lone loss a 30-27 road loss to the region's #1 team who also happens to be the defending national champion, and they've spent the rest of the season blowing the doors off everyone they've played.  If it did happen, they lost 31-28 to the same team that one week earlier had obliterated the same team ranked #4 in this poll.  That certainly appears to be worthy of better than 8th in the region.  Mr. Ypsi, I understand your point that IWU's win over Wheaton is better than any of Franklin's wins, but in theory it seems that the rankings should be based on the result's overall quality, not just W/L's, and Franklin's losses are arguably better "results" than any of the wins claimed by teams ranked above them.  This is not a knock on anyone above them, BTW - as bashbrother said, the North is stacked with very good teams and all of these guys are good.  I just think Franklin is getting the shaft a bit here.  What's funny is that Wabash-Witt will probably be decided by three points this week and the lose will suddenly get shoved down to #9 in these rankings.  Just watch.

[NCF]

The really crazy thing is that Franklin will be a low seed, yet who want to play them in round 1?