FB: Region 4 fan poll

[BashDad]

J'accuse, dude.

It looks silly to put Witt's loss v Butler over Wabash's win v HSC.

Why does it look silly? Just because Witt lost and Wabash won? This isn't a standings list. If you swap those opponents I bet you'd have a fairly similar result and accordingly in my rankings they are quite close.
Not all wins and not all losses are created equal. Would it look silly to put a 6 point loss to Mount Union ahead of a 13 point win over Franklin? It wouldn't to me.

If you actually think I'm saying that all wins and losses are created equal, I'm going to start calling you mean names.

[USee]

Adam,

Augie is no longer a wing-T option team and hasn't been for a couple of head coaches now. They run a shotgun spread formation and throw it around quite a bit.

Don't know which Auggie team you've been watching but I coached at MSJ last year and they ran the triple and the wing t. I watched three quarters last Saturday at MSJ and they were still running it.

I am talking about the Augie team that is spelled with one "g" not two. The one I have seen play live for about 30 years. Which one are you talking about?  When Barnes was at the helm he changed the entire offense to a mulitple spread, shotgun offense and scrapped the wing-T. They ran that for a couple years and the Barnes left and they hired Cushman. He ran the spread and morphed back into an option scheme for the run game. In the last couple years they are running an option running offense out of the spread and a spread passing game,  but it is not the wing-T.

[BashDad]

J'accuse, dude.

It looks silly to put Witt's loss v Butler over Wabash's win v HSC.

Why does it look silly? Just because Witt lost and Wabash won? This isn't a standings list. If you swap those opponents I bet you'd have a fairly similar result and accordingly in my rankings they are quite close.
Not all wins and not all losses are created equal. Would it look silly to put a 6 point loss to Mount Union ahead of a 13 point win over Franklin? It wouldn't to me.

If you actually think I'm saying that all wins and losses are created equal, I'm going to start calling you mean names.

I don't wanna let go.

You know what would be particularly embarrassing? The argument for why Wittenberg should be favored in a game against Wabash.

You won't offer that because, oof, why would you.

So I'll do it for you.

Here is the argument for why Wittenberg could be favored in a game against Wabash:

1. They won last year.
2. They...

Oh, wait. That's it. That's all anyone can possibly say in favor of ranking Wittenberg over Wabash. And that is a bull**** way of ranking teams.

Wittenberg's closer-than-we-thought loss at Butler is applicable only if you're prepared to say that the loss is indicative of a Wittenberg squad that is a better team in 2014 than they were in 2013. Is that really what you think?

[FCGrizzliesGrad]

J'accuse, dude.

It looks silly to put Witt's loss v Butler over Wabash's win v HSC.

Why does it look silly? Just because Witt lost and Wabash won? This isn't a standings list. If you swap those opponents I bet you'd have a fairly similar result and accordingly in my rankings they are quite close.
Not all wins and not all losses are created equal. Would it look silly to put a 6 point loss to Mount Union ahead of a 13 point win over Franklin? It wouldn't to me.

If you actually think I'm saying that all wins and losses are created equal, I'm going to start calling you mean names.

I don't wanna let go.

You know what would be particularly embarrassing? The argument for why Wittenberg should be favored in a game against Wabash.

You won't offer that because, oof, why would you.

So I'll do it for you.

Here is the argument for why Wittenberg could be favored in a game against Wabash:

1. They won last year.
2. They...

Oh, wait. That's it. That's all anyone can possibly say in favor of ranking Wittenberg over Wabash. And that is a bull**** way of ranking teams.

Wittenberg's closer-than-we-thought loss at Butler is applicable only if you're prepared to say that the loss is indicative of a Wittenberg squad that is a better team in 2014 than they were in 2013. Is that really what you think?

Based on the extremely limited data we have so far this year, yes I would say I'd take 2014 Witt over 2013 Witt. I'd also take 2014 Wabash over 2013 Wabash.

Since there apparently isn't much of an argument on why Witt would be favored (don't forget this year the game is in Ohio), how about listing the multitude of reasons why Wabash should be favored? You've had a lot of talk about Witt being worse but you haven't really given any reasons why Wabash is better other than you're a homer and don't like that someone isn't as high on them as you.

November 8th the Little Giants will have their chance to prove me wrong. Who knows... I may have the teams flipped before then but as of September 12th I stand by my assertion that I believe Wittenberg is a tiny bit better.

[BashDad]

You're kidding me.

[wally_wabash]

I'm not sure that there is a cogent argument to be made as to how 2014 Wittenberg is better than 2013 Wittenberg when 2014 Wittenberg is basically 2013 Wittenberg minus 30 seniors.   And minus the program's best ever quarterback. And the program's second best WR.

[FCGrizzliesGrad]

It's not like all 30 seniors were vital playmakers. Witt returned 12 starters... Wabash only a bit more at 14.

[BashDad]

You don't know what you're talking about.

[Dr. Acula]

I'd argue from a physical match up problem point of view he was their best WR ever too.  They've had some good ones, but he was a physical freak for D3 at his size and strength.  He looked like a freaking DE.

And best QB by a mile, IMO.

[wally_wabash]

It's not like all 30 seniors were vital playmakers. Witt returned 12 starters... Wabash only a bit more at 14.

Wittenberg lost eight (EIGHT!!) 1st team all-league players, one second team player, two HM players.  That's 11 all-conference players, goneski.  That's half of a starting lineup.  Half.  Nobody who has to replace half of their starting lineup is better the next year. 

By contrast, Wabash graduated four 1st team players and three HM players. 

[smedindy]

Because many of us were so focused on our Old Tiger hate, we lost focus on how freakin' good Witt was last year. They were. They were the epitome of a team that had great seniors that led them to a special place.

Of course, a special place for most everyone is a loss in Alliance in late November or December...

Now did they get run out of town by Butler last year, yeah. But it's apples and orangutangs to this year's Witt vs. this years Butler.

[BashDad]

Witt returned 12 starters... Wabash only a bit more at 14.

This isn't correct. Witt returns 7 starters from their game against Wabash. Wabash returns 15, plus Tyler Holmes and Mason Zurek.

[firstdown]

Witt returned 12 starters... Wabash only a bit more at 14.

This isn't correct. Witt returns 7 starters from their game against Wabash. Wabash returns 15, plus Tyler Holmes and Mason Zurek.

We seem to be getting way ahead of ourselves.  There are a lot of games to play before Wabash and Witt play, and a lot of water will flow under the bridge in the meantime.  Just a quick note, Tyler Holmes, who along with Mason Zurek were missing from the game in 2013, ate up most of the 4th quarter with his running game in Wabash's win in 2012.  We saw on Saturday how effective dominating the time of possession and keeping the other team's offense standing on the sidelines can be.

[FCGrizzliesGrad]

Witt returned 12 starters... Wabash only a bit more at 14.

This isn't correct. Witt returns 7 starters from their game against Wabash. Wabash returns 15, plus Tyler Holmes and Mason Zurek.

I got those numbers from the Wittenberg season outlook and Wabash media guide respectively. Maybe Witt had some starters injured last season before they played Wabash that are now back. All I know is that if the numbers truly wrong, go blame whoever wrote the guides.

Anyways I think this discussion has about run it's course (at least for the middle of September anyways) but I have two final comments.
1) This isn't the first time a fan of a team has been unhappy with where I've ranked them. I recall a Heidelberg fan a couple seasons ago didn't like that I had them ranked 4th or 5th (coincidentally behind Witt) near the end of the season when all the other ballots had them 2nd and talked about how a game between them wouldn't be close and they'd shut their offense down... Heidelberg proceeded to give up 52 points to Witt in a first round loss. Not surprisingly he didn't have anything to say after that. Easy to have bravado beforehand. Not so easy to admit mistakes. Now if I still have Witt ranked higher before the Wabash game (which is no certainty) and Wabash wins easily... I'll admit I was wrong. Are you willing to do the same if Wabash goes down?

2) If you're unhappy with how I've ranked them, you may want to go yell at Massey. His ratings have Wabash even lower than I do at 6th behind NCC, Mount, JC, Heidi, and Witt.

Am I saying Witt would blow out Wabash if they played this weekend? Absolutely not. Would a Wabash win surprise me? Not at all. But if you asked me to make a bet straight up this instant I'd take Witt. Now if you gave me Wabash plus a few points... say 4 or so... I'd probably take them.

The good news is we have 2 more months to observe the two teams and adjust how we perceive them accordingly.

[Adam Sayer]

Adam,

Augie is no longer a wing-T option team and hasn't been for a couple of head coaches now. They run a shotgun spread formation and throw it around quite a bit.

Don't know which Auggie team you've been watching but I coached at MSJ last year and they ran the triple and the wing t. I watched three quarters last Saturday at MSJ and they were still running it.

I am talking about the Augie team that is spelled with one "g" not two. The one I have seen play live for about 30 years. Which one are you talking about?  When Barnes was at the helm he changed the entire offense to a mulitple spread, shotgun offense and scrapped the wing-T. They ran that for a couple years and the Barnes left and they hired Cushman. He ran the spread and morphed back into an option scheme for the run game. In the last couple years they are running an option running offense out of the spread and a spread passing game,  but it is not the wing-T.

I'm telling you. They lined up with wings,  orbited, and ran the hell out off the option. They may not be wing t all the time but they ran out of it frequently last year against us and this year.