FB: Region 4 fan poll

[Dr. Acula]

I am much more interested in whether JCU or Wabash are #2 and the discussion on Wheaton vs NCC. Of course those debates are more speculative without a HTH. Wabash's HTH w HSC was an impressive win. If it were close, it wouldn't mean as much in my mind, but Wabash dominated. I know the LG's D is for real. I have seen them up close and they keep doing their thing, including shutting down an AA QB. I have my concerns about JCU since they laid an egg in last years playoffs (which shouldn't matter in this years rankings). Their D seems legit but they seemed good last year too and we were fooled. Last year they gave up 3 TD's through 9 weeks before giving up 69 pts in their 2 season ending losses. So JCU may be fools gold. I have Bash ahead because I am much more convinced of the quality of their defense and O/D Line than I am for JCU.

I can't believe I'm going to do this because it's JCU.  For the record I'm going to need a shower as soon as I post this.  But allow me to play devil's advocate...

Are we sure HSC is that good?  I mean, they're very good at QB and WR, but I mean overall.  The CNU game certainly wasn't confidence inspiring.  I would say JCU has been better against overall better opponents to date.  I thought St. Vincent stunk, but they're 2-2 so they're better than I thought I guess.  BW is obviously better than Denison.  But maybe HSC is much better than Berg so it evens back out.  I don't know, I'm just asking. 

And I'm not sure you should use giving up 44 to Mount as a strike against the JCU D because in that case that means Witt, Wesley, NC...well, basically everyone but UWW has a suspect D.  JCU played Mount on par with NC.  And NC was in a blizzard.  I don't think that's a knock on their D at all.   

[USee]

No, we aren't sure HSC is that good but we are sure their QB and receiver are pretty good and Wabash held them in check for the most part. JCU gave up 25 at home in a loss to STJF in the first round, that's mainly why I think they may be a phony.

[Sir Battlescars]

I think JCU looks really good so far this year. They have dominated on both sides of the ball in all three games they have played. It's looking like the Mount / JC game at the end of the season could be one for the ages. 

[USee]

I think JCU looks really good so far this year. They have dominated on both sides of the ball in all three games they have played. It's looking like the Mount / JC game at the end of the season could be one for the ages.

Same as last year and it ended unceremoniously for JCU

[USee]

I am much more interested in whether JCU or Wabash are #2 and the discussion on Wheaton vs NCC. Of course those debates are more speculative without a HTH. Wabash's HTH w HSC was an impressive win. If it were close, it wouldn't mean as much in my mind, but Wabash dominated. I know the LG's D is for real. I have seen them up close and they keep doing their thing, including shutting down an AA QB. I have my concerns about JCU since they laid an egg in last years playoffs (which shouldn't matter in this years rankings). Their D seems legit but they seemed good last year too and we were fooled. Last year they gave up 3 TD's through 9 weeks before giving up 69 pts in their 2 season ending losses. So JCU may be fools gold. I have Bash ahead because I am much more convinced of the quality of their defense and O/D Line than I am for JCU.

I can't believe I'm going to do this because it's JCU.  For the record I'm going to need a shower as soon as I post this.  But allow me to play devil's advocate...

Are we sure HSC is that good?  I mean, they're very good at QB and WR, but I mean overall.  The CNU game certainly wasn't confidence inspiring.  I would say JCU has been better against overall better opponents to date.  I thought St. Vincent stunk, but they're 2-2 so they're better than I thought I guess.  BW is obviously better than Denison.  But maybe HSC is much better than Berg so it evens back out.  I don't know, I'm just asking. 

And I'm not sure you should use giving up 44 to Mount as a strike against the JCU D because in that case that means Witt, Wesley, NC...well, basically everyone but UWW has a suspect D.  JCU played Mount on par with NC.  And NC was in a blizzard.  I don't think that's a knock on their D at all.   

If you mean to say JCU's Defense played Mount on par w NC's defense you may be validated in terms of the scoreboard. But in the JCU/Mount game the Raiders led that game by 18 at halftime and it was never closer than 8 pts the entire second half. JCU was mostly one dimensional with Myers throwing it 56 times for 451 yds. They had less than 100 yds rushing.

NCC on the other hand led the game 4 different times including by 5 with 1:38 to go. They ran the ball for just under 200 yds and threw it for just under 200 yds on 41 and 39 attempts respectively. Mount had 550 yds and 44 pts vs JCU and 421 yds and 40 pts vs NCC (with 6 pts off an interception return). I don't think JCU played Mount as close as NCC, although in the end they both lost so who cares.

The point is I am not giving JCU the benefit of the doubt I gave them last year just because they play in the OAC and they have only given up 4 first downs this year. I think they are very good so I have them ranked 3rd in my poll. But I have Wabash ranked 2nd because I think, based on my subjective analysis, they are a little better right now.

[Dr. Acula]

No, we aren't sure HSC is that good but we are sure their QB and receiver are pretty good and Wabash held them in check for the most part. JCU gave up 25 at home in a loss to STJF in the first round, that's mainly why I think they may be a phony.

First off, thanks for the responses USee.  My only hope in playing devil's advocate was to spur a little debate for fun in between polls.

The above quote is certainly a weak point in what I'm saying.  SJF is not an offensive juggernaut.  Clearly after beating JCU and their performance in Belton they were very good, but I think most of us would say they're good more because of D.  Therefore I agree that the 23 points is a black mark for JCU.

[Dr. Acula]

If you mean to say JCU's Defense played Mount on par w NC's defense you may be validated in terms of the scoreboard. But in the JCU/Mount game the Raiders led that game by 18 at halftime and it was never closer than 8 pts the entire second half. JCU was mostly one dimensional with Myers throwing it 56 times for 451 yds. They had less than 100 yds rushing.

NCC on the other hand led the game 4 different times including by 5 with 1:38 to go. They ran the ball for just under 200 yds and threw it for just under 200 yds on 41 and 39 attempts respectively. Mount had 550 yds and 44 pts vs JCU and 421 yds and 40 pts vs NCC (with 6 pts off an interception return). I don't think JCU played Mount as close as NCC, although in the end they both lost so who cares.

The point is I am not giving JCU the benefit of the doubt I gave them last year just because they play in the OAC and they have only given up 4 first downs this year. I think they are very good so I have them ranked 3rd in my poll. But I have Wabash ranked 2nd because I think, based on my subjective analysis, they are a little better right now.

I was at both games and NCC was DEFINITELY better than JCU.  My point was just that I don't think they were better defensively.  NCC struck me as more similar to the Witt D than JCU.  I just thought JCU was slightly better on D.

I should have explained the blizzard comment.  Mount had fewer yards and points against NCC because of the weather, IMO.  The weather affected both offenses big time as the game wore on.  Burke and Mitchell both rely on change of direction rather than top end speed to make long runs.  They're both "make you miss" guys.  The weather took that crucial skill away.  But the thing is both guys STILL had well over 100 yds rushing apiece.  NCC was having trouble stopping the read option and the snow aided them big time.

The problem that afternoon was that, while I think Mount puts up 55+ against NCC on a normal field, I also think NCC puts up 55+ on Mount on a normal field too.  Stanek did a good job running the ball which Myers cannot do.  And I thought NCC had better RB's too.

[Sir Battlescars]

I am much more interested in whether JCU or Wabash are #2 and the discussion on Wheaton vs NCC. Of course those debates are more speculative without a HTH. Wabash's HTH w HSC was an impressive win. If it were close, it wouldn't mean as much in my mind, but Wabash dominated. I know the LG's D is for real. I have seen them up close and they keep doing their thing, including shutting down an AA QB. I have my concerns about JCU since they laid an egg in last years playoffs (which shouldn't matter in this years rankings). Their D seems legit but they seemed good last year too and we were fooled. Last year they gave up 3 TD's through 9 weeks before giving up 69 pts in their 2 season ending losses. So JCU may be fools gold. I have Bash ahead because I am much more convinced of the quality of their defense and O/D Line than I am for JCU.

I can't believe I'm going to do this because it's JCU.  For the record I'm going to need a shower as soon as I post this.  But allow me to play devil's advocate...

Are we sure HSC is that good?  I mean, they're very good at QB and WR, but I mean overall.  The CNU game certainly wasn't confidence inspiring.  I would say JCU has been better against overall better opponents to date.  I thought St. Vincent stunk, but they're 2-2 so they're better than I thought I guess.  BW is obviously better than Denison.  But maybe HSC is much better than Berg so it evens back out.  I don't know, I'm just asking. 

And I'm not sure you should use giving up 44 to Mount as a strike against the JCU D because in that case that means Witt, Wesley, NC...well, basically everyone but UWW has a suspect D.  JCU played Mount on par with NC.  And NC was in a blizzard.  I don't think that's a knock on their D at all.   

If you mean to say JCU's Defense played Mount on par w NC's defense you may be validated in terms of the scoreboard. But in the JCU/Mount game the Raiders led that game by 18 at halftime and it was never closer than 8 pts the entire second half. JCU was mostly one dimensional with Myers throwing it 56 times for 451 yds. They had less than 100 yds rushing.

NCC on the other hand led the game 4 different times including by 5 with 1:38 to go. They ran the ball for just under 200 yds and threw it for just under 200 yds on 41 and 39 attempts respectively. Mount had 550 yds and 44 pts vs JCU and 421 yds and 40 pts vs NCC (with 6 pts off an interception return). I don't think JCU played Mount as close as NCC, although in the end they both lost so who cares.

The point is I am not giving JCU the benefit of the doubt I gave them last year just because they play in the OAC and they have only given up 4 first downs this year. I think they are very good so I have them ranked 3rd in my poll. But I have Wabash ranked 2nd because I think, based on my subjective analysis, they are a little better right now.

I think it's ridiculous to be bring up last year this far into the season, but since you are it's not like JC's two losses last year weren't to two top tier teams. And since you keep bringing up last year with JC, don't you have to do the same for Wabash? Wabash lost to Witt last year and Witt lost convincingly to Mount in the playoffs. That being the case, you have to give the nod to JC.

[section13raiderfan]

WOW Mount has a 400 yard advantage in offense AT THE HALF.  If Rocky Pentello were dead he would be rolling in his grave. Will Capital even come out for the second half?  Mount had blown scoring opportunities or it could be worse. I'm glad I didn't drive to this game.

[USee]

I am much more interested in whether JCU or Wabash are #2 and the discussion on Wheaton vs NCC. Of course those debates are more speculative without a HTH. Wabash's HTH w HSC was an impressive win. If it were close, it wouldn't mean as much in my mind, but Wabash dominated. I know the LG's D is for real. I have seen them up close and they keep doing their thing, including shutting down an AA QB. I have my concerns about JCU since they laid an egg in last years playoffs (which shouldn't matter in this years rankings). Their D seems legit but they seemed good last year too and we were fooled. Last year they gave up 3 TD's through 9 weeks before giving up 69 pts in their 2 season ending losses. So JCU may be fools gold. I have Bash ahead because I am much more convinced of the quality of their defense and O/D Line than I am for JCU.

I can't believe I'm going to do this because it's JCU.  For the record I'm going to need a shower as soon as I post this.  But allow me to play devil's advocate...

Are we sure HSC is that good?  I mean, they're very good at QB and WR, but I mean overall.  The CNU game certainly wasn't confidence inspiring.  I would say JCU has been better against overall better opponents to date.  I thought St. Vincent stunk, but they're 2-2 so they're better than I thought I guess.  BW is obviously better than Denison.  But maybe HSC is much better than Berg so it evens back out.  I don't know, I'm just asking. 

And I'm not sure you should use giving up 44 to Mount as a strike against the JCU D because in that case that means Witt, Wesley, NC...well, basically everyone but UWW has a suspect D.  JCU played Mount on par with NC.  And NC was in a blizzard.  I don't think that's a knock on their D at all.   

If you mean to say JCU's Defense played Mount on par w NC's defense you may be validated in terms of the scoreboard. But in the JCU/Mount game the Raiders led that game by 18 at halftime and it was never closer than 8 pts the entire second half. JCU was mostly one dimensional with Myers throwing it 56 times for 451 yds. They had less than 100 yds rushing.

NCC on the other hand led the game 4 different times including by 5 with 1:38 to go. They ran the ball for just under 200 yds and threw it for just under 200 yds on 41 and 39 attempts respectively. Mount had 550 yds and 44 pts vs JCU and 421 yds and 40 pts vs NCC (with 6 pts off an interception return). I don't think JCU played Mount as close as NCC, although in the end they both lost so who cares.

The point is I am not giving JCU the benefit of the doubt I gave them last year just because they play in the OAC and they have only given up 4 first downs this year. I think they are very good so I have them ranked 3rd in my poll. But I have Wabash ranked 2nd because I think, based on my subjective analysis, they are a little better right now.

I think it's ridiculous to be bring up last year this far into the season, but since you are it's not like JC's two losses last year weren't to two top tier teams. And since you keep bringing up last year with JC, don't you have to do the same for Wabash? Wabash lost to Witt last year and Witt lost convincingly to Mount in the playoffs. That being the case, you have to give the nod to JC.

I don't have to do anything. JCU almost loses to an average ONU team and can't score. Seems like the same movie we saw last year. I likley will drop them from the 3rd spot after their performance.

[wally_wabash]

Y'all see Franklin needed a TD plus a deuce with under 2:00 to play AND survive a field goal at the buzzer to beat Manchester?  It was on the road though. 

[BashDad]

"It was on the road though."

[smedindy]

Big difference from Manchester and a team of quality and distinction. A road game is three to five points to a sharp? I bet if I build a sim and run it, that's what it would turn out to be.

Franklin's gonna get docked because of that. JCU's gonna get re-evaluated a bit.

And on cue, Carthage is beating IWU 14-0 in the second at IWU.

So the half-hearted ineffective snark and sacrifices to the God of Rigidity may be all for naught anyway...

[wally_wabash]

Just having a little fun with the thread.   Alas, neither of those teams may be what we thought they were.   

[smedindy]

The loudest arguments usually become moot in short order...