FB: Region 4 fan poll

[wally_wabash]

The gymnastics that people do to shoehorn North Central into a tier of D3 that they almost have the credentials to be in is endlessly entertaining. 

I don't know how many people would bet on Albion in an Albion vs. NCC game.  I am certain that NCC would be grossly overvalued in that game because most people believe that North Central is something that they are not. 

[USee]

You seem to have an axe to grind with NCC? I don't over value NCC. They are ranked 4th in the region and that seems fair. They have a losing record to Wheaton in the Thorne era which suits me just fine. I really don't see any more pumping of NCC than I do of Wabash, Wheaton, or JCU for that matter. What have any of those teams done to deserve merit?

North Central is who we thought they were.

[Li'l Giant]

I can't speak for wally but there's a difference between saying that NCC is knocking the door on the tier with the purple powers and giving them the benefit of the doubt that the purple powers get; that is being a favorite for showing up.

[USee]

I can't speak for wally but there's a difference between saying that NCC is knocking the door on the tier with the purple powers and giving them the benefit of the doubt that the purple powers get; that is being a favorite for showing up.

And who on here is saying either of those things?? You guys are making stuff up.

[wally_wabash]

You're saying that North Central is two plays away from being 4-0.  I disagree.  It took a lot more than two plays for North Central to gag away the game against Platteville and it took a lot more than two plays to blow their late lead against Wesley also.  If North Central is the team that so many people make them out to be, they win those games.  They win against Stevens Point last year.  They win against Redlands.  This team ALWAYS loses games that they shouldn't be losing if they are actually in the strata of D3 that we plop them down into year after year.  And this goes back to what irked me on the other board and the guy with his CCIW #1, MIAC #1, WIAC #2 ranking system- just because North Central won the CCIW a bunch of times in a row doesn't make them awesome.  But that's the perception with that team.  I don't get it. 

North Central vs. Albion is probably a pretty good game.  I wouldn't be surprised at all if Albion won in large part because North Central makes a habit out of losing to teams that most people incorrectly think they are much better than. 

[USee]

 I like the Wally who looks at data more than the one who gets irked by mythical perceptions. Disagree all you want, the data doesn't lie.

[Li'l Giant]

You're saying that North Central is two plays away from being 4-0.  I disagree.  It took a lot more than two plays for North Central to gag away the game against Platteville and it took a lot more than two plays to blow their late lead against Wesley also.  If North Central is the team that so many people make them out to be, they win those games.  They win against Stevens Point last year.  They win against Redlands.  This team ALWAYS loses games that they shouldn't be losing if they are actually in the strata of D3 that we plop them down into year after year.  And this goes back to what irked me on the other board and the guy with his CCIW #1, MIAC #1, WIAC #2 ranking system- just because North Central won the CCIW a bunch of times in a row doesn't make them awesome.  But that's the perception with that team.  I don't get it. 

This is the exact opposite of how Heidelberg was treated in this poll last year. They made a habit of losing the tougher games on their schedule in the last few seasons and people quit giving them the benefit of the doubt.

[wally_wabash]

I like the Wally who looks at data more than the one who gets irked by mythical perceptions. Disagree all you want, the data doesn't lie.

The data tell me that North Central isn't special.  They're fine.  They're just not special.  They get treated like D3 royalty though.  That's the disconnect that irks me. 

[USee]

I like the Wally who looks at data more than the one who gets irked by mythical perceptions. Disagree all you want, the data doesn't lie.

The data tell me that North Central isn't special.  They're fine.  They're just not special.  They get treated like D3 royalty though.  That's the disconnect that irks me.

And so where you and I disagree is that perception. I agree with your first 3 statements and not your 4th statement. To be clear, I strongly dislike North Central. I hope they lose every game they play. I hope North Park pounds them into oblivion this Saturday. But they have built a solid program from the ashes of what was nothing through the 80's and 90's. I agree they have hit a ceiling and lose too many games they shouldn't. I believe they are foolish to schedule games like UWP and Wesley (and I have been pummeled by NCC faithful for this opinion). They should win those games you listed if they are that good. Totally agree. But that's a different issue than the fact that they lost by 1 play to UWW and Wesley. They didn't lose by 20, they lost by 1 play. That data tells me they are at that level and can play with the best (they have played just about all the top teams in D3 close, but they still lost). It means they aren't special and certainly not d3 royalty. I have never thought nor sensed that. And that's what I don't get with you reaction.

[wally_wabash]

But that's a different issue than the fact that they lost by 1 play to UWW and Wesley. They didn't lose by 20, they lost by 1 play. That data tells me they are at that level and can play with the best (they have played just about all the top teams in D3 close, but they still lost).

This is exactly what I'm talking about.  "They lost by 1 play..." is the perspective they get, by default now, by most people- apparently up to and including those people that want to see them lose all of the time.  I don't see those games as North Central having lost by 1 play.  I see those games as North Central having choked away a three-TD lead in the fourth quarter and having given up a 50-burger which is never excusable for a top flight team.  I don't see those results and see North Central having been in a tooth-and-nail battle of the best and aw shucks they just came up short.  I see those results as North Central having found a way to lose games that they ought to have won IF they were actually really great. 

[Pat Coleman]

True, but Wally, if they make one play in that game, or one play in the Wesley game, they win. They made a lot of mistakes to get themselves to that point but if they buckle down and make the one play it's still a W in the books. That's why it's looked at that way -- because that's the way it happened.

[wally_wabash]

True, but Wally, if they make one play in that game, or one play in the Wesley game, they win. They made a lot of mistakes to get themselves to that point but if they buckle down and make the one play it's still a W in the books. That's why it's looked at that way -- because that's the way it happened.

I'm not saying that "they lost by one play" is inaccurate.  USee and yourself are both right when you say that.  I'm just saying that "they lost by one play" is a really forgiving, lenient way to treat those results. 

[USee]

Ok, how about this:

North Central sucked by one play more than UWP and Wesley? You have me convinced Wally. I am being way too lenient on the pile of suck from the south. I will not refer to them by name and will generally avoid mentioning them until they defeat a top 25 team.

Correct me if I am reading this wrong but don't you then feel the same way about Wesley? They are considered "top tier" (reading Ryan Tipps ATN this week) but gave up 70 burger to UMU.

[Dr. Acula]

NCC doesn't have any playoff wins against anyone that'd catch your eye, IMO.  Their most impressive results historically are probably a close loss to a bad Mount Union team and a competitive loss to UWW.  Wesley, I believe, has a little more meat on their resume than that.

p.s. "Bad" Mount team meaning by their standards, obviously.  The 2013 team walked a tightrope all year because of arguably the worst defense Mount has had in 20+ years.  Only Burke's heroics saved them, including in that NCC game.

[BashDad]

Wesley is not top tier.