FB: Region 4 fan poll

[USee]

Wesley is not top tier.

Thus endeth the lesson.

[wally_wabash]

Ok, how about this:

North Central sucked by one play more than UWP and Wesley? You have me convinced Wally. I am being way too lenient on the pile of suck from the south. I will not refer to them by name and will generally avoid mentioning them until they defeat a top 25 team.

Correct me if I am reading this wrong but don't you then feel the same way about Wesley? They are considered "top tier" (reading Ryan Tipps ATN this week) but gave up 70 burger to UMU.

I do not think that Wesley is top shelf, no. 

My thing with North Central is that they have a gaudy reputation built on a foundation that I don't agree with.  They won the CCIW a bunch of times in a row during a time when people were tripping over one another to exalt the CCIW as a really great conference.  And why wouldn't we?  The CCIW routinely posted stellar non-league win/loss records and many times their champion would have nice playoff runs that would end at the hands of Mount Union, and who can fault them for that, right?  All well and good, except that I found that the CCIW's non-league record was made up largely by wailing on teams from the IBC/NACC, MWC, UMAC, and MIAA.  Yes, there were a few nice results against decent teams from the IIAC and MIAC mixed in very sporadically, but by and large the CCIW picked on bad teams from bad leagues.  So in my view, North Central winning the CCIW a bunch of times meant less than it meant to most others.  And I'm not saying that winning the league was easy- they have to go through Wheaton every year which is never easy and occasionally IWU is pretty good.  But the CCIW isn't the week-in-week-out meat grinder people think it was.  At least in my opinion. 

So I think North Central gets a pass where a lot of other teams don't based on an incorrect perception of how good the CCIW is/was.  I don't think North Central is "a pile of suck".  They're a fine team.  Top 25 caliber for sure.  But instead of treating those UWP and Wesley games as de facto wins but if for just one play, I think it's fair to question why they can't ever win one of those games if they're supposed to be knocking on Mr. Stagg's door. 

[Mr. Ypsi]

Ok, how about this:

North Central sucked by one play more than UWP and Wesley? You have me convinced Wally. I am being way too lenient on the pile of suck from the south. I will not refer to them by name and will generally avoid mentioning them until they defeat a top 25 team.

Correct me if I am reading this wrong but don't you then feel the same way about Wesley? They are considered "top tier" (reading Ryan Tipps ATN this week) but gave up 70 burger to UMU.

I do not think that Wesley is top shelf, no. 

My thing with North Central is that they have a gaudy reputation built on a foundation that I don't agree with.  They won the CCIW a bunch of times in a row during a time when people were tripping over one another to exalt the CCIW as a really great conference.  And why wouldn't we?  The CCIW routinely posted stellar non-league win/loss records and many times their champion would have nice playoff runs that would end at the hands of Mount Union, and who can fault them for that, right?  All well and good, except that I found that the CCIW's non-league record was made up largely by wailing on teams from the IBC/NACC, MWC, UMAC, and MIAA.  Yes, there were a few nice results against decent teams from the IIAC and MIAC mixed in very sporadically, but by and large the CCIW picked on bad teams from bad leagues.  So in my view, North Central winning the CCIW a bunch of times meant less than it meant to most others.  And I'm not saying that winning the league was easy- they have to go through Wheaton every year which is never easy and occasionally IWU is pretty good.  But the CCIW isn't the week-in-week-out meat grinder people think it was.  At least in my opinion. 

So I think North Central gets a pass where a lot of other teams don't based on an incorrect perception of how good the CCIW is/was.  I don't think North Central is "a pile of suck".  They're a fine team.  Top 25 caliber for sure.  But instead of treating those UWP and Wesley games as de facto wins but if for just one play, I think it's fair to question why they can't ever win one of those games if they're supposed to be knocking on Mr. Stagg's door.

Wally, I think you are fighting a 'straw man' here.  I can't recall anyone here giving NCC a 'pass' for their losses, treating the close losses as de facto wins (they did drop quite a bit nationally), or thinking they are all-that-close to a Stagg Bowl berth.  I DO give them more of a pass than say a DePauw or Denison because they have proven they can go toe-to-toe with anyone in the country (though it is also fair to ask why they can't ever actually WIN those games ). 

[Mr. Ypsi]

Mr Ypsi,

I am sorry for my comments that you clearly took personally. I meant it as a general "you" concerning frustration with the methodology of ranking (which is not specific to just you). I could have written those words better.

It is sometimes unfortunate that English does not distinguish pronouns between the general (plural) you and the specific (singular) you.  I've also (unintentionally) insulted people when I meant the generic and they took it personally.  I accept your explanation, and am no longer offended!

I believe that a vast majority of the time teams change over the years only somewhat gradually, and past performance IS a primary component of future performance.  (Exceptions include an unusual rate of illness/injury [e.g., IWU 2014], a 'miracle recruiting class' [e.g., Monmouth with Tanney, etc., or Trine with Watt, etc.], or a coaching change [DePauw?  so far incomplete data]).  I therefore DO give much more latitude to teams with a proven track record than to those without such a record (hence the delay in voting for DePauw).  Other voters may disagree, but that is the good thing about a poll as opposed to an 'expert'!

[Mr. Ypsi]

Much as I like football, I like basketball and baseball seasons better.  Too friggin' much down time in football - six days of nothing then a whole bunch of games you'd like to follow all at the same time!   With basketball and baseball there are interesting and regionally or nationally relevant games virtually every day of the season!

On the other hand, football season can be glorious weather-wise - basketball season is too damn cold!!

[Li'l Giant]

On the other hand, football season can be glorious weather-wise - basketball season is too damn cold!!

Not in Texas....

[Mr. Ypsi]

On the other hand, football season can be glorious weather-wise - basketball season is too damn cold!!

Not in Texas....

Michigan is not Texas.  Weather-wise (PART of the year) that is unfortunate; in most ways, Thank God!

[Li'l Giant]

I'm jealous of your fall. I'm gonna tailgate in 90+ degree weather today. 65 degree days in January I would prefer to keep, however.

[cave2bens]

C'mon now, LG... you get your one week of fall near Uvalde searching for lost maples (any color but brown, please...).  As one who spent extensive years in both locales (and is engaged in a spousal battle over retirement destinations currently), I'd side with Mr Ypsi for Michigan but only if Lansing traded the area bordered by US 23, 26 Mile Road, and the OH-MI border skirmish line (inc. Toledo) to Ontario for future draft picks.  .  Now back to the subject at hand...

[Ryan Stoppable]

On the other hand, football season can be glorious weather-wise - basketball season is too damn cold!!

And so is baseball season around these parts.

[Dr. Acula]

Denison is only up 14-6 on Hiram in the 4th?  Not overly impressive.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Denison is only up 14-6 on Hiram in the 4th?  Not overly impressive.

I've already submitted my NR ballot (since Denison would not have been on it no matter what they did to the puppies), but this kinda confirms why I haven't jumped on their bandwagon until they actual beat someone.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Good comments. A few replies/additional notes:

Ypsi,
Re:
-UMU and 30 years....be careful here. You are coming dangerously close to ringing Wally's bell. I was making a different point with my analogy.
-Olivet: You and the coaches in the MIAA apparently overrated Adrian. They were the pick to win the MIAA. I would say on a relative scale that's a quality win. More so than Depauw to date.
-Check you math on UWSP Mr. Stats professor. Their opponents, sans Albion, are 3-9 so I have my doubts about UWSP.  I am not sure that Albion's victory over UWSP is such a quality win. But sith 17 returning starters (for UWSP) from the team that beat NCC and finished 7-3 I gave Albion the benefit of the doubt for that win. I may be adjusting it later. For now, Albion is in my top 10
-RHIT's last year record with 18 returning starters doesn't mean anything other than they should be better than last year, which is good enough for spot #10 for now. ONU's on my radar but the Bluffton thing and general performance of the OAC below UMU gives me pause. I don't have a strong axe to grind here.

ExTartan, You described Depauw better than I could, I agree.

As for your "nobody's perfect" comment, I disagree. Wally and me are perfect except when we disagree, then it's just me.

UWSP came within a whisker of downing UW-Platteville today - still have doubts?

[USee]

Good comments. A few replies/additional notes:

Ypsi,
Re:
-UMU and 30 years....be careful here. You are coming dangerously close to ringing Wally's bell. I was making a different point with my analogy.
-Olivet: You and the coaches in the MIAA apparently overrated Adrian. They were the pick to win the MIAA. I would say on a relative scale that's a quality win. More so than Depauw to date.
-Check you math on UWSP Mr. Stats professor. Their opponents, sans Albion, are 3-9 so I have my doubts about UWSP.  I am not sure that Albion's victory over UWSP is such a quality win. But sith 17 returning starters (for UWSP) from the team that beat NCC and finished 7-3 I gave Albion the benefit of the doubt for that win. I may be adjusting it later. For now, Albion is in my top 10
-RHIT's last year record with 18 returning starters doesn't mean anything other than they should be better than last year, which is good enough for spot #10 for now. ONU's on my radar but the Bluffton thing and general performance of the OAC below UMU gives me pause. I don't have a strong axe to grind here.

ExTartan, You described Depauw better than I could, I agree.

As for your "nobody's perfect" comment, I disagree. Wally and me are perfect except when we disagree, then it's just me.

UWSP came within a whisker of downing UW-Platteville today - still have doubts?

Nope.  But UWPs best player is also out and may have made a difference last week.

[wally_wabash]

Denison is only up 14-6 on Hiram in the 4th?  Not overly impressive.

Denison has the longest active win streak in D3*.  Just sayin'.   

*unless you count Amherst, which I don't