FB: Region 4 fan poll

[Li'l Giant]

Seriously, this is like arguing that Charles Barkley is taller than LeBron James, even though they stood next to each other and LeBron was taller, because the next day LeBron stood next to Shaq and lost the height battle.

+k from me for this as well

[ExTartanPlayer]

Glad I could deliver the chuckles, folks.  The runner-up in my analogy contest for this was:

"This is like arguing that the number 2 is actually more than the number 3, because the next week, we counted higher and learned that the number 3 is less than the number 100."

[jknezek]

Glad I could deliver the chuckles, folks.  The runner-up in my analogy contest for this was:

"This is like arguing that the number 2 is actually more than the number 3, because the next week, we counted higher and learned that the number 3 is less than the number 100."

Stick with your A material. You dated yourself with the Barkley and Shaq references, but otherwise it was great. The number version didn't have the same visual appeal...   

[wally_wabash]

Glad I could deliver the chuckles, folks.  The runner-up in my analogy contest for this was:

"This is like arguing that the number 2 is actually more than the number 3, because the next week, we counted higher and learned that the number 3 is less than the number 100."

[wally_wabash]

New poll up tonight.  I'm not expecting much movement as all twelve teams in last week's top ten won on Saturday.  Might see some shake up next week though. 

[wally_wabash]

And here is your North Region Fan Poll through Week 6:


1- Mount Union (6-0)        80 points (1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1)
2- Wheaton (6-0)            69 points (2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3)
3- Wabash (6-0)             67 points (2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3)
4- Illinois Wesleyan (6-0)  50 points (4, 4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5)
4- North Central (4-2)      50 points (4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 6, 8)
6- DePauw (6-0)             39 points (5, 5, 6, 6, 6, 7, 7, 7)
7- Olivet (6-0)             34 points (6, 6, 6, 7, 7, 7, 7, 8)
8- Albion (6-0)             26 points (6, 7, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9)
9- Franklin (5-2)            9 points (9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, x, x)
10- Rose Hulman (6-0)        7 points (9, 9, 10, 10, 10, x, x, x)
10- Wittenberg (4-2)         7 points (8, 9, 10, 10, x, x, x, x)

ORV:
John Carroll (5-1)           2 points (9, x, x, x, x, x, x, x)



The NRFP is voted on by: Captain_Joe08, Dr. Acula, FCGrizzliesGrad, Li'l Giant, Mr Ypsi, NCF, USee, and wally wabash.

[Dr. Acula]

I was a little surprised that a 4-2 Witt was on several ballots while a 4-2 ONU is absent from all of ours.  If I was slotting those two I would have had ONU ahead of Witt personally.

[Mr. Ypsi]

While I love seeing IWU tied for 4th (and may see them all alone there next week if Wheaton does what I think they will do to NCC), who in the world voted NCC EIGHTH?!  (Unless your team is UMU, Wheaton, Wabash, or perhaps IWU - and I'm the only IWU voter - I dare say that NCC would tear your team limb-from-limb!)

While I HOPE (and suspect) IWU will down NCC, I've still got NCC 4th, IWU 5th; I can't even imagine what other THREE teams that voter had above NCC.  (Actually, I cannot only imagine it, I know it, since Franklin, RHIT, Witt, and JCU got no votes above 8: the voter had IWU, DePauw, Olivet, and Albion [in whatever order] ALL above NCC.  One or two, fine.  All of them, no.  These are rankings, not standings.  The fact that all four teams are 6-0 while NCC is 4-2 is not the crucial fact (if it were, why didn't you have NCC 9th behind 6-0 RHIT?)

I can't believe I am so vociferously defending NCC - I think I'll go shower now!

[Mr. Ypsi]

I was a little surprised that a 4-2 Witt was on several ballots while a 4-2 ONU is absent from all of ours.  If I was slotting those two I would have had ONU ahead of Witt personally.

Witt's win over previously undefeated Denison was more impressive than ONU's win over Cap.  My #10 last week was ONU; this week I went with Franklin instead.  I thought the magnitude of their victory over a once-good MSJ was also more impressive than the Cap win.  To me there is a pretty clear top five: UMU, Wheaton, Wabash, NCC/IWU; after that the next nine or ten are almost a 'flavor of the week'.

[wally_wabash]

I would also add that Witt's two losses are to a pair of undefeated and going-to-be regionally ranked teams on the road (regardless of what we might think of DePauw's SOS).  ONU has that stink job from Baldwin Wallace which is more difficult to justify. 

[ExTartanPlayer]

While I love seeing IWU tied for 4th (and may see them all alone there next week if Wheaton does what I think they will do to NCC), who in the world voted NCC EIGHTH?!  (Unless your team is UMU, Wheaton, Wabash, or perhaps IWU - and I'm the only IWU voter - I dare say that NCC would tear your team limb-from-limb!)

While I HOPE (and suspect) IWU will down NCC, I've still got NCC 4th, IWU 5th; I can't even imagine what other THREE teams that voter had above NCC.  (Actually, I cannot only imagine it, I know it, since Franklin, RHIT, Witt, and JCU got no votes above 8: the voter had IWU, DePauw, Olivet, and Albion [in whatever order] ALL above NCC.  One or two, fine.  All of them, no.  These are rankings, not standings.  The fact that all four teams are 6-0 while NCC is 4-2 is not the crucial fact (if it were, why didn't you have NCC 9th behind 6-0 RHIT?)

We've spent plenty of air on this and other boards talking about North Central and their valiant 2 losses this and whether they should get a Pool C bid if they end up 7-3 (the answer is no), so I'll not rehash the entire discussion here. 

I'll concede I've used the "these are rankings, not standings" line myself plenty of times and agree that teams should not be ranked by record alone, but you said it yourself: the fact that all four teams are 6-0 is not the crucial fact because they are ranked ahead of another 6-0 team.  So the voter obviously does understand that.  In their estimation, the three 6-0 teams that they did slot about North Central are currently more deserving of the ranking.  I don't know for sure who would win, but I don't think North Central is the clear-cut favorite in those games that you're assuming they are.

For example, Albion opened the season with a win over UW-Stevens Point.  UWSP has, in the last two weeks, taken UW-Platteville to overtime and led UW-Oshkosh (the might vanquishers of UWW) in the second half before falling 21-10.  That name UW-Platteville rings a bell...oh, right, they/re one of those teams who beat North Central.

It's a convoluted comparison that goes through several common opponents, and you can absolutely wring that the other way by looking at other isolated results on the schedules (i.e. Albion struggling to get by an Adrian team that Wheaton handled easily) but it's really not that much of a stretch to think Albion and NCC are comparable.  Albion beat a team (UWSP) that took one of NCC's losses (UWP) to overtime, and has remained unbeaten. 

I think you're overestimating the overall quality of the CCIW and underestimating the overall quality of the MIAA.  North Central has blown out three of the CCIW's lesser lights, two of whom are played MIAA teams and lost (Millikin lost to Kalamazoo, Carthage lost to Olivet), so let's not pretend that equals tearing the MIAA's best limb from limb just yet.  North Central blew out Trine in their opener, but Olivet just blew Trine out last week; I'm not sure that's a mic-drop win for CCIW > MIAA either. NCC can certainly win their way back up the rankings with wins over IWU and Wheaton, but I'm fine with someone in the poll not just assuming that North Central will tear the other 6-0 teams limb from limb just because they played close games with two other really, really good teams and "poor North Central, the boys fought so hard" in those games.  I'm fine with someone not assuming that the CCIW automatically has three teams better than the entire MIAA.

[ExTartanPlayer]

One additional point I want to toss out there:

Let's pretend North Central beat Stevens Point 65-52 in the opener and Albion lost to UW-Platteville 35-28.  Would anyone in here be predicting that Albion would tear the teams ranked below them limb from limb?  Or would the talk be that Albion had a chance to prove themselves a good team, but just couldn't quite get it done, ergo they have to stay a bit lower in the poll?

If Albion had that same exact result against UWP, no way would it be used in their favor by most voters, especially not to justify a ranking at #4 or #5.  It would be something like "Albion did show respectably against UWP, so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt even though they play in the lousy MIAA and rank them 8th."  But somehow North Central gets a point for that loss, and gets it used not just to show that they play well against good competition, but that they would tear Olivet, Albion, and DePauw limb from limb!

[USee]

While I love seeing IWU tied for 4th (and may see them all alone there next week if Wheaton does what I think they will do to NCC), who in the world voted NCC EIGHTH?!  (Unless your team is UMU, Wheaton, Wabash, or perhaps IWU - and I'm the only IWU voter - I dare say that NCC would tear your team limb-from-limb!)

While I HOPE (and suspect) IWU will down NCC, I've still got NCC 4th, IWU 5th; I can't even imagine what other THREE teams that voter had above NCC.  (Actually, I cannot only imagine it, I know it, since Franklin, RHIT, Witt, and JCU got no votes above 8: the voter had IWU, DePauw, Olivet, and Albion [in whatever order] ALL above NCC.  One or two, fine.  All of them, no.  These are rankings, not standings.  The fact that all four teams are 6-0 while NCC is 4-2 is not the crucial fact (if it were, why didn't you have NCC 9th behind 6-0 RHIT?)

We've spent plenty of air on this and other boards talking about North Central and their valiant 2 losses this and whether they should get a Pool C bid if they end up 7-3 (the answer is no), so I'll not rehash the entire discussion here. 

I'll concede I've used the "these are rankings, not standings" line myself plenty of times and agree that teams should not be ranked by record alone, but you said it yourself: the fact that all four teams are 6-0 is not the crucial fact because they are ranked ahead of another 6-0 team.  So the voter obviously does understand that.  In their estimation, the three 6-0 teams that they did slot about North Central are currently more deserving of the ranking.  I don't know for sure who would win, but I don't think North Central is the clear-cut favorite in those games that you're assuming they are.

For example, Albion opened the season with a win over UW-Stevens Point.  UWSP has, in the last two weeks, taken UW-Platteville to overtime and led UW-Oshkosh (the might vanquishers of UWW) in the second half before falling 21-10.  That name UW-Platteville rings a bell...oh, right, they/re one of those teams who beat North Central.

It's a convoluted comparison that goes through several common opponents, and you can absolutely wring that the other way by looking at other isolated results on the schedules (i.e. Albion struggling to get by an Adrian team that Wheaton handled easily) but it's really not that much of a stretch to think Albion and NCC are comparable.  Albion beat a team (UWSP) that took one of NCC's losses (UWP) to overtime, and has remained unbeaten. 

I think you're overestimating the overall quality of the CCIW and underestimating the overall quality of the MIAA.  North Central has blown out three of the CCIW's lesser lights, two of whom are played MIAA teams and lost (Millikin lost to Kalamazoo, Carthage lost to Olivet), so let's not pretend that equals tearing the MIAA's best limb from limb just yet.  North Central blew out Trine in their opener, but Olivet just blew Trine out last week; I'm not sure that's a mic-drop win for CCIW > MIAA either. NCC can certainly win their way back up the rankings with wins over IWU and Wheaton, but I'm fine with someone in the poll not just assuming that North Central will tear the other 6-0 teams limb from limb just because they played close games with two other really, really good teams and "poor North Central, the boys fought so hard" in those games.  I'm fine with someone not assuming that the CCIW automatically has three teams better than the entire MIAA.

Outside of your personal opinion, which by definition is quite subjective, this is a pretty fair synopsis of both sides of the discussion. We do know that the top 3 CCIW teams are better than the top 3 MIAA teams because they all played each other this year. The midddle and bottom, not so much. And the fact that a team or two from each conference went from middle to top and bottom to middle this year muddy's the water a little on this discussion. This is a microcosm of why it is so hard to compare conferences. We have actual head to head results of CCIW v MIAA and there are different interpretations of the actual results.

As far as the Pile of Suck from the South, I don't know what to make of them. Do I think they would blow out Albion this year based on what we have seen? No way. P.O.S.S. defense has given up way too many points to think Albion couldn't score and score a lot. But P.O.S.S. is also scoring on virtually everybody so it could be a Wesley style shoot out. I wouldn't be surprised if P.O.S.S. loses badly to Wheaton and IWU and disappears from our radars nor would it surprise me if they beat both teams and most of us elevate them in the rankings and they end up deep in the playoffs via Pool A. They are en enigma. Will the team that led Wesley and UWP by 21 pts in the 2nd half and scored 30 in a quarter @Millkin show up? Or will it be the team that gave up 28 and 46 late to UWP and Wesley and trailed Millikin by 7 in the 2nd half? Don't know. I do know that if you disappear for long stretches of games  (on offense and/or defense) against really good teams you are going to lose, and maybe lose badly.

If they win this week I will keep them high in my poll. If they lose, and it does depend on how badly, I will significantly drop them.

[Li'l Giant]

NCC can certainly win their way back up the rankings with wins over IWU and Wheaton, but I'm fine with someone in the poll not just assuming that North Central will tear the other 6-0 teams limb from limb just because they played close games with two other really, really good teams and "poor North Central, the boys fought so hard" in those games.

I'm the voter that had them 8 and this is pretty close to my thought process.

I don't have a problem with the concept of a "quality loss". Or using those quality losses to differentiate teams of equal record. So if a 4-2 Team A loses to UMU and Wheaton and 4-2 Team B loses to Millikin and Wooster, I think you can say "well, Team A has higher quality losses and they should be ranked higher".

I *do* have a problem with Team A losing to UMU and Wheaton and saying they should be ranked higher than Team B which is undefeated when Team A hasn't beaten anyone that Team B couldn't beat either.

I think Albion/DePauw/Olivet would all lose to Wesley and Platteville, sure. But who has NCC *beaten* those 3 could not? Sure, you can say that NCC would be 6-0 with Albion/Olivet/DePauw's schedules but I think those 3 teams would be 4-2 with NCC's schedule, too.

Now, if NCC beats Wheaton this week they'll have a win better than any of those 3 and now there's something to differentiate them besides losing a game those 3 would have lost too.

And maybe y'all are right and NCC would beat the brakes off those 3 teams H2H but I don't *know* that and none of the games that NCC has *won* tells me that.

[USee]

I think Albion/DePauw/Olivet would all lose to Wesley and Platteville, sure....And maybe y'all are right and NCC would beat the brakes off those 3 teams H2H but I don't *know* that and none of the games that NCC has *won* tells me that.

This seems inconsistent to me. You say A/D/O would all lose to Wesley and Platteville. But then you claim to have no idea if the Pile of Suck from the South would do the same? While "none of the games that P.O.S.S. has *won* tells you that, 2 of the games they lost definitely tell you something! If you want to tow the line and say P.O.S.S. doesn't get credit for a loss and so you don't want to rank them that's one thing, but to say Wesley and Platteville would "Surely" beat Albion/Depauw/Olivet but you have no idea about P.O.S.S., when there are literally 2 plays separating those teams, seems incompatible.

To be clear, I am not treating a 4-2 team like D3 royalty here, I am much more focused on the notion that Wesley and Platteville would "surely" beat Albion/Depauw/Olivet. That's not a jump you can make in your line of reasoning.