FB: Region 4 fan poll

[USee]

I moved Franklin up 3 spots to 4 this week.  While I generally agree with what Wally has said I think North Central just beat a team with a top 50 defense and Offense and held their #2 nationally ranked pass rush in check.  Franklin is the real deal on offense but their 219 ranked pass defense and need to outscore people keeps them from any higher consideration. 

I don't know why Franklin gets a pass for their Bluffton result but Wheaton has something "missing" because they don't beat Carthage by more points. Those were both wins against potentially ranked teams so I view them as pretty similar.

[GRIZ_BACKER]

Very curious as to your reason for leaving NCC behind FC after the Wheaton win, Wally.  I don't mean that in a snarky way; I know you put a lot of thought into this and know more about D3 football than most (including me).

It's not overly complicated, really.  I think TMC > Wheaton, so Franklin beating TMC at home is a better result than NCC beating Wheaton at home.  Which is not to say that I think that's an obvious take, Wheaton and TMC are fairly close and part of me thinks that Wheaton should be better than TMC in 2016, but there's been, I don't know, something missing from Wheaton this year.  No problems with NCC 2 and Franklin lower with anybody who went that way.  I certainly evaluated these two pretty heavily this weekend before settling on a final order.  Franklin's a tough team to pin down.  They have the great result, then have a bunch of results against a bunch of not-so-good teams that don't move the needle, then they have the optics of Butler margin of defeat.   There's a lot of stuff on the surface of Franklin's profile that turns people off, which I get.

I am not a voter but if I had to handicap Franklin vs Wheaton the Thunder would be laying points (even on the road).  I think 4 is the right spot.  The 4 top teams in the NCAC havent done anything to suggest that they are anywhere near NCC or Wheaton (could Denison actually be for real?) and this year the GRIZ are better than they normally are (and have a of folks that will be back again next season).  9-12 are all having solid years compared to normal but have no quality wins.  It will be interesting how the playoff seeding works.  Franklin at this point is probably headed for a "3" and should host one of the lesser conference AQ or a pool C from NCAC (if I had to guess).  Could even end up a 2 in the south and get TM again.  Things are coming into focus.  The GRIZ need to take care of business against RHIT and a possibly resurgent MSJ before any real playoff talk happens.

[wally_wabash]

I don't know why Franklin gets a pass for their Bluffton result but Wheaton has something "missing" because they don't beat Carthage by more points. Those were both wins against potentially ranked teams so I view them as pretty similar.

I'm not sure what Bluffton and Carthage have to do with anything with respect to how we compare Franklin and Wheaton.  Franklin has a meaningful win against an excellent team and Wheaton doesn't.  That part does seem pretty straightforward to me. 

[smedindy]

I'm a slow burner on Denison. They're at #8 on my ballot, mainly because I think Witt beats them 11 times out of 20. But realistically, from #3 through to Bluffton (my #11) is razor thin in my mind.

[ExTartanPlayer]

I'm a slow burner on Denison. They're at #8 on my ballot, mainly because I think Witt beats them 11 times out of 20. But realistically, from #3 through to Bluffton (my #11) is razor thin in my mind.

Hey, a slow-burn is fine.

I'd still love to hear the logic for someone keeping Benedictine ranked while leaving Denison off the ballot entirely.

And if it's some crap about how ranking more than three NCAC teams seems strange, then I'd like to hear why the team at the top of the daisy-chain of inter-conference wins in their matchups to date (Denison > Wittenberg  > Wabash+DePauw) is the one that's left out.

[New Tradition]

Thanks for the response!

[USee]

I don't know why Franklin gets a pass for their Bluffton result but Wheaton has something "missing" because they don't beat Carthage by more points. Those were both wins against potentially ranked teams so I view them as pretty similar.

I'm not sure what Bluffton and Carthage have to do with anything with respect to how we compare Franklin and Wheaton.  Franklin has a meaningful win against an excellent team and Wheaton doesn't.  That part does seem pretty straightforward to me.

You mean a win against the team that most of the D3 world currently has ranked above them? Yep. Pretty straightforward.

[wally_wabash]

I don't know why Franklin gets a pass for their Bluffton result but Wheaton has something "missing" because they don't beat Carthage by more points. Those were both wins against potentially ranked teams so I view them as pretty similar.

I'm not sure what Bluffton and Carthage have to do with anything with respect to how we compare Franklin and Wheaton.  Franklin has a meaningful win against an excellent team and Wheaton doesn't.  That part does seem pretty straightforward to me.

You mean a win against the team that most of the D3 world currently has ranked above them? Yep. Pretty straightforward.

Maybe I'm not following your question.  Are you asking me why I have Franklin ahead of North Central or why I have Franklin ahead of Wheaton? 

[ExTartanPlayer]

I don't know why Franklin gets a pass for their Bluffton result but Wheaton has something "missing" because they don't beat Carthage by more points. Those were both wins against potentially ranked teams so I view them as pretty similar.

I'm not sure what Bluffton and Carthage have to do with anything with respect to how we compare Franklin and Wheaton.  Franklin has a meaningful win against an excellent team and Wheaton doesn't.  That part does seem pretty straightforward to me.

You mean a win against the team that most of the D3 world currently has ranked above them? Yep. Pretty straightforward.

I have great respect for the d3fb top 25 voters and do not envy them the difficult task of sorting through 200+ teams to decide on the 25 best, but I think Thomas More's ranking above Franklin right now is an egregious/obvious error and frankly more indicative of voters-not-really-paying-close-attention who have anchored themselves to the idea that certain teams/conferences are "good" and others aren't than it is any real critical thought or analysis about why Thomas More is a better team than Franklin.

[Captain_Joe08]

I was one of the outliers... surprised still no one else has Bluffton on their ballot. Just comparing Bluffton and DePauw, Bluffton has a 6 point loss at Franklin while DePauw has an 11 point loss at Witt. Slight edge Beavers there since everyone has Franklin ranked higher. DePauw's best win so far is MSJ. Bluffton has won at 5-1 Trine. The one point in DePauw's favor is that they beat MSJ by more than Bluffton did.

Honestly I don't think Denison is the #5 team in the region, but given the games we have so far I didn't have much option. On my top 25 ballot I have Denison, Witt, Wabash 19-21.

I will say that had North Central won a little more convincingly over Wheaton, I was absolutely prepared to move them ahead of Mount. They sit 4 and 5 on my top 25 ballot.

Bluffton is my #11 team.  (Olivet is #12.)  Benedictine is no longer even on my radar - I already dropped them last week when they gave up 49 to very bad Wis Lu; now they have lost to Lakeland.

BU plays WLC this Saturday, they gave up 49 to Concordia Wisconsin.

[Ryan Stoppable]

I was one of the outliers... surprised still no one else has Bluffton on their ballot. Just comparing Bluffton and DePauw, Bluffton has a 6 point loss at Franklin while DePauw has an 11 point loss at Witt. Slight edge Beavers there since everyone has Franklin ranked higher. DePauw's best win so far is MSJ. Bluffton has won at 5-1 Trine. The one point in DePauw's favor is that they beat MSJ by more than Bluffton did.

Honestly I don't think Denison is the #5 team in the region, but given the games we have so far I didn't have much option. On my top 25 ballot I have Denison, Witt, Wabash 19-21.

I will say that had North Central won a little more convincingly over Wheaton, I was absolutely prepared to move them ahead of Mount. They sit 4 and 5 on my top 25 ballot.

Bluffton is my #11 team.  (Olivet is #12.)  Benedictine is no longer even on my radar - I already dropped them last week when they gave up 49 to very bad Wis Lu; now they have lost to Lakeland.

BU plays WLC this Saturday, they gave up 49 to Concordia Wisconsin.

Next weekend, the 29th; they're at Olivet this weekend.

[izzy stradlin]

Very curious as to your reason for leaving NCC behind FC after the Wheaton win, Wally.  I don't mean that in a snarky way; I know you put a lot of thought into this and know more about D3 football than most (including me).

It's not overly complicated, really.  I think TMC > Wheaton, so Franklin beating TMC at home is a better result than NCC beating Wheaton at home.  Which is not to say that I think that's an obvious take, Wheaton and TMC are fairly close and part of me thinks that Wheaton should be better than TMC in 2016, but there's been, I don't know, something missing from Wheaton this year. 

No question.  Even before the "bell" loss, this has felt like a weird season for Wheaton.  I think much of this stems who the coaches chose to play quarterback.  While it really doesn't matter that every fan disagreed with the coaches, these is no question there were/are players in the locker room who didn't like seeing their senior captain QB benched in a questionable decision (and I'm not even saying anything about the play of Andrew Bowers here).  This created a very odd vibe around the team.  Watch post-games comments this year and Swider usually appears defensive.  It's too bad--talent wise, this roster is right there with anything Wheaton has ever had.

[New Tradition]

Very curious as to your reason for leaving NCC behind FC after the Wheaton win, Wally.  I don't mean that in a snarky way; I know you put a lot of thought into this and know more about D3 football than most (including me).

It's not overly complicated, really.  I think TMC > Wheaton, so Franklin beating TMC at home is a better result than NCC beating Wheaton at home.  Which is not to say that I think that's an obvious take, Wheaton and TMC are fairly close and part of me thinks that Wheaton should be better than TMC in 2016, but there's been, I don't know, something missing from Wheaton this year. 

No question.  Even before the "bell" loss, this has felt like a weird season for Wheaton.  I think much of this stems who the coaches chose to play quarterback.  While it really doesn't matter that every fan disagreed with the coaches, these is no question there were/are players in the locker room who didn't like seeing their senior captain QB benched in a questionable decision (and I'm not even saying anything about the play of Andrew Bowers here).  This created a very odd vibe around the team.  Watch post-games comments this year and Swider usually appears defensive.  It's too bad--talent wise, this roster is right there with anything Wheaton has ever had.

There was a play when Bowers had to take a play off for whatever reason and JP checked into the game.  I almost soiled myself.  I'm sure anyone listening to the broadcast heard it in my voice.  Thankfully for NCC, he only handed the ball off once and checked right back out.  I had flashbacks to the 2014 game. 

[GRIZ_BACKER]

I don't know why Franklin gets a pass for their Bluffton result but Wheaton has something "missing" because they don't beat Carthage by more points. Those were both wins against potentially ranked teams so I view them as pretty similar.

I'm not sure what Bluffton and Carthage have to do with anything with respect to how we compare Franklin and Wheaton.  Franklin has a meaningful win against an excellent team and Wheaton doesn't.  That part does seem pretty straightforward to me.

You mean a win against the team that most of the D3 world currently has ranked above them? Yep. Pretty straightforward.

I have great respect for the d3fb top 25 voters and do not envy them the difficult task of sorting through 200+ teams to decide on the 25 best, but I think Thomas More's ranking above Franklin right now is an egregious/obvious error and frankly more indicative of voters-not-really-paying-close-attention who have anchored themselves to the idea that certain teams/conferences are "good" and others aren't than it is any real critical thought or analysis about why Thomas More is a better team than Franklin.

More likely on top of name recognition and bias for certain conferences is the fact Franklin has a loss to D1-AA Butler.  Had Franklin chosen to play another D3 team (one they could beat) they would be 6-0 and ranked higher.  Butler may not "count" but it really does to some degree.  Glad they are off the schedule.  Benedictine is coming on next season after the road trip to Thomas More.

[wally_wabash]

Very curious as to your reason for leaving NCC behind FC after the Wheaton win, Wally.  I don't mean that in a snarky way; I know you put a lot of thought into this and know more about D3 football than most (including me).

It's not overly complicated, really.  I think TMC > Wheaton, so Franklin beating TMC at home is a better result than NCC beating Wheaton at home.  Which is not to say that I think that's an obvious take, Wheaton and TMC are fairly close and part of me thinks that Wheaton should be better than TMC in 2016, but there's been, I don't know, something missing from Wheaton this year. 

No question.  Even before the "bell" loss, this has felt like a weird season for Wheaton.  I think much of this stems who the coaches chose to play quarterback.  While it really doesn't matter that every fan disagreed with the coaches, these is no question there were/are players in the locker room who didn't like seeing their senior captain QB benched in a questionable decision (and I'm not even saying anything about the play of Andrew Bowers here).  This created a very odd vibe around the team.  Watch post-games comments this year and Swider usually appears defensive.  It's too bad--talent wise, this roster is right there with anything Wheaton has ever had.

Just to clarify that something that I think Wheaton is missing isn't necessarily Peltz at QB.  You guys know I'm team #playJohnny all the way, but that's not specifically what I was talking about there.  It's something much less tangible and hard to describe.  I saw it at Wabash at times in 2012, I'm seeing it this year at Wabash.  Seems something similar is happening with Wheaton.  I wish I could describe it better.