NESCAC

[Mr.Right]

I still do not think you can lump Midd and Bowdoin with Amherst and Williams. Williams and Amherst have always been and continue to be top dogs. Midd and Bowdoin right behind them with Wesleyan. Usually a ton of kids have Midd and Bowdoin as comparable but Wesleyan is its own beast and it is fairly more common to see a Wesleyan / Brown dynamic. Then you have Colby and Bates with Hamilton right behind them. Trinity and Conn are at the bottom but still obviously very good schools and I would probably put Trinity closer to Hamilton than Conn.

[rangerfan]

I don't want to comment on the 'ranking' of the schools within the conference because there is no right answer. Much of it is a matter of perception and is highly subjective. If you talk to college counselors today, you'll likely get a different current ranking based upon the recent results of kids accepted from their high schools. Needless to say, you can't go wrong at any of these schools, and you need to find the right fit in the classroom, on the team, on campus, etc. My son, a 2019 commit, made his NESCAC school choice and based it upon a variety of factors, many of which have been mentioned in the thoughtful discussion of the past 24 hours.

That said, I want to offer a brief word on Tufts and the process that Shapiro has going there, and to offer my $.02 on why he might be so successful recruiting. I'm not talking about Tufts as a school, I'll let others judge the school. But I can say that the sales pitch from Shapiro, if you are on his short list, is much more compelling than most other schools. He laid out to my son exactly where he saw him fitting on the squad, who he was going to play behind, when he'd likely get consistent minutes, and how he should look at the learning process while he worked out and trained. It was all very specific, quite thought out, and for a high school player looking at a top notch school and program, very compelling. Only one other NESCAC coach approached my son in such a fashion, but it wasn't nearly as specific in terms of the plan. It was, however, far beyond what he got from many other NESCAC coaches, most of whom spent too much time selling their schools and relying on assistant coaches to keep the lines of communication opened. I get that coming from Wesleyan, because it has a reputation as a more liberal place (as someone mentioned, in the mold of Brown) and it might require more selling to certain players. From most of the others, not so much.

[Mr.Right]

Sounds about right...Shapiro is very attentive to every detail in every process. I find it a bit much to be spelling out to your son where he will play and who he will play behind and how many minutes and starts he will get as a Frosh. NO ONE can control that. You get injuries, maybe your son doesn't pan out as expected and now Shapiro has to change things up or change his position. These are all things out of his control unless he has super natural powers to be able to discern EVERY recruit and tip he brings in and know before the kid enrolls how good he will be. Most Coaches make mistakes EVERY year on at least 1 player and I am betting Shapiro falls into that category as well. It is only realistic to make a mistake once in a while so promising minutes, position and # of goals he will tally is WAY to much information. There is no way he could make all those promises happen......I am just using your son as an example as I am not saying he will fail or whatever just making a point...

[Saint of Old]

Rangerfan, I am sure your boy will be a success, but Mr. Right is absolutely correct.
There are soooo many variables in the college game, it is really impossible to predict which freshman will succeed (right away).
The position he plays has a whole lot to do with it, a does the coaches view of him.

Coaches make mistakes and players lose confidence.
I think the players who have early success in college are those that are more consistent as opposed to the best players.
Sometimes these things go together, sometimes they do not.
Some good high school players have to learn consistency at the college level while above average players who consistently bring that level will  play a lot more early on.

By Junior year things usually even out and talent rises to the top (if the player sticks with the program or is allowed to).
Injuries is another BIG BIG factor.
Picking up an injury early on can destroy a players' career.

Also, there may be one or two sleepers on the team who will break out and surprise the coach and force him to change whatever he told recruits beforehand. This does not mean the coach is not honest, just that a few players he may have overlooked decided to bring it!!!

[truenorth]

I still do not think you can lump Midd and Bowdoin with Amherst and Williams. Williams and Amherst have always been and continue to be top dogs. Midd and Bowdoin right behind them with Wesleyan. Usually a ton of kids have Midd and Bowdoin as comparable but Wesleyan is its own beast and it is fairly more common to see a Wesleyan / Brown dynamic. Then you have Colby and Bates with Hamilton right behind them. Trinity and Conn are at the bottom but still obviously very good schools and I would probably put Trinity closer to Hamilton than Conn.

Actually the modern day college rankings are a bit more diverse than simply the traditional US News rankings.  Forbes has a list that combines universities and colleges and accounts for the ROI on the college investment.  And Niche has a ranking largely driven by student feedback.  The criteria for each of these rankings differ, and one can certainly make the case that these criteria are silly and irrelevant vs. what's important in the real world...but high school students, their parents and their guidance counselors do pay some attention to this stuff...

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-liberal-arts-colleges
US News ranks Williams #1, Amherst #2, and Bowdoin and Midd tied for #5 (along with Pomona and Carleton) among "national liberal arts colleges".

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities
US News ranks Tufts #27 among "national universities".

https://www.forbes.com/top-colleges/list/#tab:rank
Forbes ranks Williams #11, Amherst #16, Bowdoin #17, Tufts #33 and Midd #36 among all universities and colleges combined.

https://www.niche.com/colleges/search/best-liberal-arts-colleges/
Niche ranks Bowdoin #2, Amherst #3, Midd #6 and Williams #13 among liberal arts colleges.

At the end of the day, all the NESCAC schools are top notch academic institutions...but to my earlier point, if a student athlete wants to start right away and/or have more playing time, he ironically might have a better shot at doing so at Williams, Amherst, Bowdoin and Midd vs. Tufts with its deep roster in the current moment.

[Mr.Right]

Rangerfan, I am sure your boy will be a success, but Mr. Right is absolutely correct.
There are soooo many variables in the college game, it is really impossible to predict which freshman will succeed (right away).
The position he plays has a whole lot to do with it, a does the coaches view of him.

Coaches make mistakes and players lose confidence.
I think the players who have early success in college are those that are more consistent as opposed to the best players.
Sometimes these things go together, sometimes they do not.
Some good high school players have to learn consistency at the college level while above average players who consistently bring that level will  play a lot more early on.

By Junior year things usually even out and talent rises to the top (if the player sticks with the program or is allowed to).
Injuries is another BIG BIG factor.
Picking up an injury early on can destroy a players' career.

Also, there may be one or two sleepers on the team who will break out and surprise the coach and force him to change whatever he told recruits beforehand. This does not mean the coach is not honest, just that a few players he may have overlooked decided to bring it!!!

+k Saint...Well said and we learned this summer through your write-ups what you had to do in your early SLU career to succeed and all the setbacks you had to overcome. It can all be very eyeopening for any Frosh. Those are a MUST read for any incoming College Frosh IMO...Well done

[1970s NESCAC Player]

Truenorth - just to counter your point:

"if I were a high caliber high school soccer player with strong academic credentials and an interest in the NESCAC, do I want to go to Tufts with its recent winning heritage and its deep roster"...YES! Tufts is never ranked as a liberal arts school due to its graduate schools/med school/vet school, etc (only NESCAC not to be considered "liberal arts"); rather its considered a national university in college rankings so has to compete against the Harvards, Yales, Ivies, U Chicagos, etc.

If we're talking purely undergraduate liberal arts then I don't think there is much difference between the top tier NESCACS (Amhert, Williams, Midd, Bowdoin, Tufts). I know we've had this on the boards before, but in terms of 2019 acceptance rates, 1. Amherst & Bowdoin are 14%...Tufts and Williams are 15%...Colby and Wesleyan are 16%...Middlebury is 17%...then a slight drop off with Bates at 22%.

Again, my point is that I don't think that a "high caliber player" thinks he'll lose anything "academically" by choosing any one of the top NESCAC schools over the other. To echo Mr. Right's comments, that's why Tufts has been able to get the kids Amherst and Williams used to get all the time over the other schools. Academic excellence is guaranteed at any one of these schools, but consistent and recent winning tradition is currently only guaranteed at one...

My two cents on the recent and sustained success of the program.

Colby has become so popular, it actually hit 13% acceptance rate for the Class of 2022:  12300 applications and 1600 acceptances.

[PaulNewman]

I have marveled at Colby's rise since my days of having such a serious parental interest.  1970s, what accounts for the rise?  New President?  Non-apologetic commitment to raising the ranking?  Some other new strategic plan? 

I can remember having a sense of Colby from before I had a personal interest up to when I did.  Colby certainly was very well thought of, but did seem to be pretty locked in with Bates, with Bowdoin as the slightly superior big brother.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Colby has done better with their endowment growth over the years while Bates struggled in that area, so I don't know how much that has impacted things.  I've also always thought of Bates as slightly crunchier, perhaps shading in vibe towards Wesleyan (or Oberlin/Kenyon).  At any rate, Colby seems intent on joining Midd and Bowdoin as a full-fledged equal.  I have a real fondness for Colby...beautiful school and obviously doing really well.  I suppose it is too remote for some but that didn't bother me.

[Mr.Right]

Nescac Predictions:

------This is a key weekend in Nescac with 6 out 11 teams playing back to back's. Sunday night we should have a solid idea of where teams stand as most teams will have the same number of games played. We have 8 teams within 4 pts of each other which is something I have never seen before this late in the season.

Midd at Trinity-----Midd will dominate Trinity in this game. When a team like Bates rolls into town and outshoots you 28-5 or whatever then you know things are going downhill.  Bates has improved but not that much. Only thing in Trinity's favor is this is an 11am kickoff which might throw Midd for a loop but I doubt it will matter. As I have said since Trinity dropped its first 3 Nescac games in astonishing fashion they are well on their way to going 0-10-0 in the league. History tells us that Trinity Admin could care less about Soccer but they did build both Soccer programs that brand spanking new field which is really solid so maybe they are starting to come around. For any other school I would say Pilger is on the hot seat but I still do not believe Trinity really cares enough to make a move. Pilger has been there for about 14 years so he has built up plenty of relationships with admin and I am sure he is well liked. Still if enough people are complaining I am sure Trinity would at the very least look into the situation as they do have a new AD who might actually care about sports other than Football and Squash which the President cares most about. Trinity has been leaking goals like crazy all year.........3-1 Midd


Bowdoin at Hamilton----------It's October and Bowdoin is going on its usual winning streak after starting the season slowly. They have won 5 games in a row with 3 shutouts. This does not bode well for Hamilton as they are in a massive goal scoring slump. They have 4 goals in 7 Nescac games. They are 1-4-0 in their last 5 Nescac games scoring 2 goals in those 5 games. I mean they are still creating chances but cannot finish anything. Other than not scoring goals they have looked pretty solid as I like the Frosh in net and they have been steady in the back but Wood's production is way off. Hamilton's two strikers Wood and Schmidt have only scored 1 goal apiece as it might be time for Perry Nizzi to change the lineup a bit. Frosh Dils has two goals plus veterans Casadei and Chapman have 2 apiece but Hamilton's other veterans Plump, Casadei and Milnarik have zero. We have two teams going in opposite directions here which would lead any sane person to pick Bowdoin but I never claimed to be sane. Hamilton plays well at Home and finds the goal they need in the 2nd Half as their backline strength, height and physicality deals with Niang, Reid, Morant and whoever else Bowdoin sends forward on set pieces.....1-0 Hamilton


Wesleyan at Williams---------Wesleyan is hanging in the Nescac Playoff race by a thread. They are 2-4-0 with 6pts and finish with Williams, Midd, Amherst and Conn. I am guessing they need to get to 12 pts to get into the Top 8. Maybe 10 or 11 pts will do it but I would not count on it. That means that Wesleyan must Win two games from those 4 teams I just mentioned. Wesleyan is having more trouble scoring goals than Hamilton right now. They have scored 7 Goals all season so I am not seeing how they can get 2 Wins in their final 4 games but it is possible. I suppose they could go 1-1-2 and grab 5 pts to get to 11 total and possibly just qualify. Wesleyan traditionally does not play well at Williams and without looking I am guessing they have not won in Williamstown since a monster upset in the 2010 Nescac Quarters. I could definitely see them grinding out a Draw in this game if the bounces go their way. Williams looked completely uninterested in their 1-0 OT Win v Coast Guard midweek. Sullivan has decided to move Bardong out of the CB position and insert the frosh Oberg into his natural position. Seems a bit of odd timing in the middle of the season especially because I thought Bardong had been playing well with Scatt MacDonald at CB. Oberg is a natural CB so I get it but now you have way to many holding midfielders as Bardong will play there along with Dory and Andreou you need to find time for all  3 as none of them are attacking midfielders. Change is fine BUT after the issues finishing at Skidmore you would think we would see maybe a change in attack or even getting out of this 4-2-3-1. Williams plays well at Home plus they have a ton to play for right now as they do have games in hand on everyone but are currently in 9th place so they need points in both these games this weekend.....Williams 2-0


Colby at Amherst---------Colby has had another up and down season kind of like last year. They are 5-4-2 but a respectable 2-3-2 in Nescac. Their finishing schedule could be favorable with this match, Home v Hamilton and at Bates to finish the year. Yet another team having real trouble scoring goals as they have a measly 3 goals in 7 Nescac games. Of course they have only given up 5 goals. Amherst is 6-3-1 and 3-3-1 in Nescac and have scored 7 goals and conceded 7. Amherst has struggled defensively IMO this season and starting CB did not play at Conn. Their other CB Ajayi started at RB and Serpone started Cohen and Fitzgerald at CB. Fitzgerald is slow as molasses and Colby could take advantage as they have 2 very quick wingers and Pereira is quick enough up top to exploit this. I have a feeling though Seabrook will start Tower up top to counter Amherst size and he has no skill but is effective on set pieces. Amherst has been down all year but they did show some fight in equalizing at Conn after they went down 1-0. Colby has shown the ability to absorb tons of pressure and get results on the road. They did beat Amherst last year at Home and Amherst will remember that. Amherst obviously has more horses and will be putting tons of pressure on Colby's net but if Colby's GK can play like he has all season(minus the disastrous GK'ing error against Bowdoin) and Colby stays disciplined defensively(which they usually do) plus get a couple good looks on the counter(which has happened but far to infrequent and they have not been finished) then they will have a chance at getting a result here. I do not think Amherst loses at Home and for all I know they come out and score a couple quick goals but I see a Draw in this match.......0-0


Tufts at Conn---------Game of the weekend as this game will decide who wins the league and hosts the Nescac Tournament. They both do still have to travel to Bowdoin and Tufts still has a match v Williams so it is possible that those teams factor into who wins the league as well. I have gone into detail the past few days on Tufts and Conn as there are no secrets in this match. The loss of Manoogian for Conn really does hurt as he is their leader but Miranda should fill in for him and do fine. Another factor is if Conn's striker MT Tshuma is playing as he did not play against Amherst. He is dangerous as he could get behind Tufts CB's with his speed. So against Tufts 4-5-1 Conn needs to immediately play fast when they get the ball to catch Tufts before they get set defensively. Easier said than done especially on that narrow field. Conn must play direct and I think hit ball after ball over the top to bypass Tufts midfield. Conn should just cede the midfield battle and hit balls over the top to wingers Murphy and Dieng as use their speed to their advantage. If they can play direct and fast and hit some accurate balls over the top they can not only bypass Tufts midfield but burn Najjar as those three Conn players are faster than he is. Tufts other three backs Weatherbie, Daly and Paoletta do have speed so everything has to be done to precision. Try to get the first goal(if there is a goal) and then sit on the lead.....Conn 2-1

[Mr.Right]

I have marveled at Colby's rise since my days of having such a serious parental interest.  1970s, what accounts for the rise?  New President?  Non-apologetic commitment to raising the ranking?  Some other new strategic plan? 

I can remember having a sense of Colby from before I had a personal interest up to when I did.  Colby certainly was very well thought of, but did seem to be pretty locked in with Bates, with Bowdoin as the slightly superior big brother.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Colby has done better with their endowment growth over the years while Bates struggled in that area, so I don't know how much that has impacted things.  I've also always thought of Bates as slightly crunchier, perhaps shading in vibe towards Wesleyan (or Oberlin/Kenyon).  At any rate, Colby seems intent on joining Midd and Bowdoin as a full-fledged equal.  I have a real fondness for Colby...beautiful school and obviously doing really well.  I suppose it is too remote for some but that didn't bother me.

It could be just as simple as Waterville v Lewiston....I have no idea why you would want to spend 4 years in Lewiston....

[blooter442]

I have no idea why you would want to spend 4 years in Lewiston....

😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣

You sound like somebody from Maine!

To be fair it has improved a lot, but for a while it was definitely not somewhere you wanted to be alone at night out on the streets.

[PaulNewman]

I have marveled at Colby's rise since my days of having such a serious parental interest.  1970s, what accounts for the rise?  New President?  Non-apologetic commitment to raising the ranking?  Some other new strategic plan? 

I can remember having a sense of Colby from before I had a personal interest up to when I did.  Colby certainly was very well thought of, but did seem to be pretty locked in with Bates, with Bowdoin as the slightly superior big brother.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Colby has done better with their endowment growth over the years while Bates struggled in that area, so I don't know how much that has impacted things.  I've also always thought of Bates as slightly crunchier, perhaps shading in vibe towards Wesleyan (or Oberlin/Kenyon).  At any rate, Colby seems intent on joining Midd and Bowdoin as a full-fledged equal.  I have a real fondness for Colby...beautiful school and obviously doing really well.  I suppose it is too remote for some but that didn't bother me.

It could be just as simple as Waterville v Lewiston....I have no idea why you would want to spend 4 years in Lewiston....

Right, but doesn't explain why they used to be considered so interchangeable or so even.....and Waterville isn't exactly Amherst or even Brunswick.

[1970s NESCAC Player]

I have marveled at Colby's rise since my days of having such a serious parental interest.  1970s, what accounts for the rise?  New President?  Non-apologetic commitment to raising the ranking?  Some other new strategic plan? 

I can remember having a sense of Colby from before I had a personal interest up to when I did.  Colby certainly was very well thought of, but did seem to be pretty locked in with Bates, with Bowdoin as the slightly superior big brother.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Colby has done better with their endowment growth over the years while Bates struggled in that area, so I don't know how much that has impacted things.  I've also always thought of Bates as slightly crunchier, perhaps shading in vibe towards Wesleyan (or Oberlin/Kenyon).  At any rate, Colby seems intent on joining Midd and Bowdoin as a full-fledged equal.  I have a real fondness for Colby...beautiful school and obviously doing really well.  I suppose it is too remote for some but that didn't bother me.

It could be just as simple as Waterville v Lewiston....I have no idea why you would want to spend 4 years in Lewiston....

Right, but doesn't explain why they used to be considered so interchangeable or so even.....and Waterville isn't exactly Amherst or even Brunswick.

Arrival of new President has coincided with a somewhat meteoric rise in popularity and rankings.  He has made it a priority to increase diversity and market the school nationally, resulting in record numbers of applications and a class profile that seems to become more impressive each year. Colby's endowment is now in the $800 million plus range, whereas Bates is more like $300 million.  Bowdoin's endowment is approximately $1.4 billion.

Colby has somewhat of an advantage over both of the Maine schools in that its campus has vast available land.  Although the school is over 200 years old, the current campus, which moved from downtown Waterville, dates from the 1950s and was built on vacant land, which allowed for organized planning and complementary architecture, and which probably makes it the most aesthetically appealing of the three schools.  The athletic facilities are currently in the process of a significant upgrade, boasting the most impressive baseball, softball, and soccer facilities in the conference.  The school is also in the midst of constructing a $200 million plus, 300,000 SF athletic center (to open in 2020), which may be unmatched anywhere in D3 (including Kenyon's, which I have visited).  The school is fortunate, like other NESCACs, to have wealthy alumni donors, and Colby is currently conducting a $750 million capital raising campaign.  The school is also unique in that it has the largest (and finest) art museum in the state, which has one of the best collections of American art in the country.

Not only is Waterville more appealing than Lewiston, Colby's president has made it a priority to engage with the community.  Colby has invested tens of millions of dollars in revitalizing the downtown, and recently completed a downtown dormitory that houses 200 students, contains retail space and a public space that the Waterville city council uses for meetings.

All of these factors, plus the diverse academic offerings and off campus facilities, probably mean that the school will continue to be a popular destination for the foreseeable future.

[truenorth]

Yes, David Green, the current Colby president is a high roller who comes from a family of college administrators.  He is aggressive, has sterling contacts, and has done a lot in a relatively short period of time to raise Colby's profile .  But I've heard some alums and faculty members say some of this change has been too much, too fast and has caused Colby to lose a little bit of its soul in the process...

[Saint of Old]

Sounds about right...Shapiro is very attentive to every detail in every process. I find it a bit much to be spelling out to your son where he will play and who he will play behind and how many minutes and starts he will get as a Frosh. NO ONE can control that. You get injuries, maybe your son doesn't pan out as expected and now Shapiro has to change things up or change his position. These are all things out of his control unless he has super natural powers to be able to discern EVERY recruit and tip he brings in and know before the kid enrolls how good he will be. Most Coaches make mistakes EVERY year on at least 1 player and I am betting Shapiro falls into that category as well. It is only realistic to make a mistake once in a while so promising minutes, position and # of goals he will tally is WAY to much information. There is no way he could make all those promises happen......I am just using your son as an example as I am not saying he will fail or whatever just making a point...

Adding to your point Mr. R, I once knew a skinny SLU freshman  kid who was third in line for the #7 shirt but by game number 2  both players ahead of him broke their leg and he inherited the classic number not based on anything but weird freak destiny or chance.... 

That is how random things can be in the college game.

I would advise any HS senior to do their best to diversify their game in order to give the coach more to think about in terms of where you can slot in if need be.