NESCAC

[MidwestAficionado]

Pre-season rankings out, Amherst 3, Williams 6, no one else in NESCAC earns a mention.  These rankings, though, generally closely correspond with how teams finished last year, so they are of limited value.

Every preseason poll in every sport is useless... but I would rather have something being published than nothing.

[All NESCAC]

Pre-season rankings out, Amherst 3, Williams 6, no one else in NESCAC earns a mention.  These rankings, though, generally closely correspond with how teams finished last year, so they are of limited value. 

http://www.nscaatv.com/rankings/3112/NCAADivisionIII/men/PreseasonPoll

Agreed, but still even though based on the merit of last year, hard to argue against these pre-season-rankings in light of NESCAC league.  The two teams who should be ranked are and the rest of the NESCAC need to earn a way on.  Let's hope for the NESCAC League there are more than 2 teams in the Final 2014 rankings.

[D3soccerwatcher]

I am not too familiar with NESCAC teams, but just questioning how strong of a conference it is with only two teams posting 10 or more wins in the 2013 campaign.  And also the conference's NCAA national tournament representative gets beat 4-0 and gets out shot 25-11 in the semi-finals.  I only see the numbers, but stats like that certainly raise questions about the real strength of the conference.  Again not too familiar with the teams in the conference, just looking at the stats.

I don't think it's fair to include Rutgers-Camden and Loras in the same category as schools like Wheaton(IL), Williams, Ohio Wesleyan, TCNJ, Trinity(TX) etc., because those schools have been major powers for decades, and all have won titles over the years, and Rutgers-Camden and Loras are relative newcomers to being powerhouses ... let's see them maintain their elite status for more than a few years (I'm especially skeptical for Rutgers-Camden's staying power, since they have been helped by an influx of D1 transfers, a strategy that may or may not be sustainable over the long term). 

I did include NJAC as an elite D3 conference, and I would certainly include CCIW (CAC is a different story, because they are more a mediocre conference that happens to have two elite programs at the top).  But the point is not to quibble over which OTHER conferences may or may not be included in the conversation -- the point is, you were the one who claimed, based on a single game against Messiah in the Final Four that NESCAC was not a power conference (and by implication, that Williams was not a power program).  That's just flat-out silly, and it seems like you have now conceded the point by grouping NESCAC with CCIW, NJAC, etc., where I think it clearly belongs.   

OK nescac1 lets look at the two quotes (or really one quote and one misquote)...

You said and I quote... "..the point is, you were the one who claimed, based on a single game against Messiah in the Final Four that NESCAC was not a power conference..." 

That's simply not true and not what I said (you can see my full quote above).  I used two pieces of real data to question the strength of NESCAC...

#1 -- Only two NESCAC teams posted 10 or more wins in the 2013 campaign.  Let's compare that to the CAC who you called a "mediocre conference".   Five CAC teams posted 12 or more wins in 2013.  These are real numbers, not my opinion.  If CAC is "mediocre", where does that leave NESCAC based on the data?
#2 -- The NESCAC NCAA tournament representative did get "pasted" 4-0 in the final 4.  We can all agree that's bad.  And yeah as you said in another post, Messiah did beat one other team in the final four by 4 goals one time a few years back.  So it's happened twice over the past several years.  That's not company I'd want to be in and not a stat I'd want to have to defend.

NESCAC may have some historical strength...but recent performance stats just aren't quite there.

[lastguyoffthebench]

Given the limited schedule, maybe take a look at nescac win percentage, d3sw.  It is a very strong conference. However, it is not a very strong region, outside of the nescac.  I think York and Salisbury are currently there with Williams and Amherst, but the south is one of the toughest regions now that the njac has shifted there.

Nescac1, I would certainly classify loras as a powerhouse just behind historic programs; messiah, owu, trinity, Wheaton, Williams. They consistently play a difficult out of conference schedule on top of a demanding league schedule.   Camden could be on its way, as they too put up some fine seasons playing difficult schedules year in year out.  Eliminating cupcake games as much as possible is a model that these two programs seem to embrace.   I guess if you want to be the best, you have to play the best teams out there. 

[nescac1]

Once again, D3soccerwatcher, your arguments are just silly, because you ignore inconvenient facts and look at a tiny snapshot in time (which again, is why I don't put Loras and Rutgers Camden up among the top D3 soccer powers -- lots of teams have had amazing three years runs -- but can they do it for 10-20 years, is the question.  Would also help if they won a title). 

You used two isolated data points to make a sweeping conclusion.  And I don't think you understand the meaning of "true" because one of those two data points was, indeed, the margin of victory in a single game involving Messiah.  You keep contradicting yourself.  Is this data point meaningful, or is it not?  If it's not, then you are down to just one.  But yes, you ABSOLUTELY used performance in a single game as FIFTY PERCENT of the support for your flimsy argument, which has been thoroughly debunked.  Again, I just gave one example, but Messiah has absolutely trounced many, many REALLY good teams in Final Four games.   To question the strength of a conference as a whole based on that game is silly.  Since you seem focused inordinately on single data points, I found it interesting that you ignored this data point: that NESCAC is the ONLY conference beyond Messiah's to produce a national champion over the past eight years or so.  I guess Midd's title just doesn't count for you, ehhh?  And has also produced several other final four squads during that time frame. 

Your ONLY other data point supporting your argument is NESCAC's record in a SINGLE year, a year which wasn't the best year for NESCAC (but even in a relative down year, STILL produced two elite 8 and one final four squads!!!).  That is equally futile.   If you look at previous years, NESCAC's won-loss record is typically much better.  Look at Amherst's won-loss record over the past five years, or Williams' won-loss record over the past 20 or so -- both are among the very best in D3.  You also ignore the fact that NESCAC teams play fewer games so, yeah, of course, they are going to have fewer 10-win teams.  Finally, the fact that NESCAC is a much deeper and more balanced conference than most in Division 3 affects W-L records -- obviously, it's easier to post gaudy won-loss records when you play in a very top-heavy conference.  NESCAC typically has at least 5-6 real quality squads, many of whom beat other NESCAC teams that go on to play in or even win Final Fours. 

If you want to make a serious argument, at the very least you have to look to NESCAC's historical performance in NCAA tourney play (which includes two national titles, more than all but a small handful of conferences) and to NESCAC's historical won-loss PERCENTAGE out of conference (if NESCAC teams are beating other NESCAC teams, that doesn't help your argument in the least), which is extraordinarily high.  Your argument is, frankly, just demonstrably false. 

[nescac1]

Oh, and by the way, NESCAC aggregate out-of-conference record in recent years:

2013: 44-14-5
2012: 46-14-8
2011: 49-15-2

So, yeah, NESCAC is a power conference. 

[FourMoreYears]

What stands out to me with the NESCAC is the depth of quality teams in the conference.   

In the regular season, it's not unusual to see a team that finishes 8th or 9th in the standings knock off a team that finishes 1st or 2nd.

Last year, for example, Trinity finished 9th in the conference yet beat a NCAA Final Four team (Williams) in the regular season.
This is not to suggest that Trinity was the better team, they obviously were not, but the depth and quality of teams in the conference is pretty good, which is how a CONFERENCE should be measured.

And to revisit the "10 wins" argument against ... the NESCAC team only played 14 games last year (it will be 15 this year) ... so given that 10 of the 14 were in-conference, it's not a valid argument to compare total wins to other conferences that (a) play more games and (b) are not as strong top to bottom.

In my opinion at least. :-)

[All NESCAC]

Oh, and by the way, NESCAC aggregate out-of-conference record in recent years:

2013: 44-14-5
2012: 46-14-8
2011: 49-15-2

So, yeah, NESCAC is a power conference.

Agreed---look at the out of conference winning %---if you add an 18 to 20 game schedule (with 8 or 10 non-league games) like most other D3 teams then you would have a number of NESCAC teams with 13 and 14 regular season win seasons---my guess even last year that would have been 4 or 5.

[KnightFalcon]

Once again, D3soccerwatcher, your arguments are just silly, because you ignore inconvenient facts and look at a tiny snapshot in time (which again, is why I don't put Loras and Rutgers Camden up among the top D3 soccer powers -- lots of teams have had amazing three years runs -- but can they do it for 10-20 years, is the question.  Would also help if they won a title). 

You used two isolated data points to make a sweeping conclusion.  And I don't think you understand the meaning of "true" because one of those two data points was, indeed, the margin of victory in a single game involving Messiah.  You keep contradicting yourself.  Is this data point meaningful, or is it not?  If it's not, then you are down to just one.  But yes, you ABSOLUTELY used performance in a single game as FIFTY PERCENT of the support for your flimsy argument, which has been thoroughly debunked.  Again, I just gave one example, but Messiah has absolutely trounced many, many REALLY good teams in Final Four games.   To question the strength of a conference as a whole based on that game is silly.  Since you seem focused inordinately on single data points, I found it interesting that you ignored this data point: that NESCAC is the ONLY conference beyond Messiah's to produce a national champion over the past eight years or so.  I guess Midd's title just doesn't count for you, ehhh?  And has also produced several other final four squads during that time frame. 

Your ONLY other data point supporting your argument is NESCAC's record in a SINGLE year, a year which wasn't the best year for NESCAC (but even in a relative down year, STILL produced two elite 8 and one final four squads!!!).  That is equally futile.   If you look at previous years, NESCAC's won-loss record is typically much better.  Look at Amherst's won-loss record over the past five years, or Williams' won-loss record over the past 20 or so -- both are among the very best in D3.  You also ignore the fact that NESCAC teams play fewer games so, yeah, of course, they are going to have fewer 10-win teams.  Finally, the fact that NESCAC is a much deeper and more balanced conference than most in Division 3 affects W-L records -- obviously, it's easier to post gaudy won-loss records when you play in a very top-heavy conference.  NESCAC typically has at least 5-6 real quality squads, many of whom beat other NESCAC teams that go on to play in or even win Final Fours. 

If you want to make a serious argument, at the very least you have to look to NESCAC's historical performance in NCAA tourney play (which includes two national titles, more than all but a small handful of conferences) and to NESCAC's historical won-loss PERCENTAGE out of conference (if NESCAC teams are beating other NESCAC teams, that doesn't help your argument in the least), which is extraordinarily high.  Your argument is, frankly, just demonstrably false.

I admire your passionate defense of NESCAC, but didn't OWU from NCAC win it all in 2011?

[frank uible]

The strength of OWU's men's soccer history is much more extensive and greater than a mere 2011 championship.

[nescac1]

My bad omitting OWU, but that doesn't diminish the underlying point: by whatever metric you choose to apply, NESCAC is among the power conferences of D3 soccer.  That is not any sort of controversial statement, it's just a fact. 

[lastguyoffthebench]

Is there a reason behind NESCAC not putting out a preseason coaches poll or am I not finding this online somewhere?   Don't all the conferences do this? 

[frank uible]

Such polls are not NESCAC's style - too superficial, too aggressive, too emphatic, too immodest, too self-congratulatory.

[All NESCAC]

Such polls are not NESCAC's style - too superficial, too aggressive, too emphatic, too immodest, too self-congratulatory.

Also, too athletically oriented which would rub too many in the NESCAC world the wrong way.  I'd say some of the previous posters 2014 pre-season NESCAC polls would be pretty accurate for what an actual league poll would be.

[D3soccerwatcher]

Oh, and by the way, NESCAC aggregate out-of-conference record in recent years:

2013: 44-14-5
2012: 46-14-8
2011: 49-15-2

So, yeah, NESCAC is a power conference. 

Question is who are they playing out of conference?  Wonder it there are many truly elite teams from other conferences like Rutgers-Camden (NJAC), Messiah (MAC), Wheaton (CCIW), or York (CAC) in these non-conference games.  You might be able to point to some good teams but my guess is the truly elite teams do not consistently make this non-conference list for NESCAC.  I may be wrong, but I think it's a question worth exploring.