NESCAC

[Bucket]

guys - I hear you about structural advantages due to location but I would point out that Amherst drove almost 4 hours for a Sunday late afternoon game vs national power Montclair State.  Amherst is the master at making sure their out of conference schedule is world class so they can host NCAA weekends as often as possible.

Bowdoin, seems like there are some Boston-based teams in LEC that are way better alternatives.

Middlebury is a bit more challenging but why not teams like Oneonta, ST L etc.

Also, beating a team 11-1 where your starting players play 60% of the game and score 7 goals seems like a "run up the score/pad your stats" strategy to me.

Also, it was the first game of the year, and many of those who logged significant minutes were first years (Sawin, Davis, Horowitz, Hoke, Nicholl, Dugan). I'm not so quick to fault the coaching staff for wanting to see them play significant minutes in their first collegiate game.

[Bucket]

Bucket, it's not the elitism, it's the double elitism...not only are we far superior to everyone else but we also demonstrate that superiority even more because of all the restrictions and barriers caused at least in part by our....yep, you guessed it, our superiority.

I do think Midd and the Maine schools have a distinct disadvantage because of geography....although I'm a little more sympathetic with the Maine group.  There's only so many Nescacs Babson can play...or Brandeis...or Wheaton MIT, etc.

I would think if Midd can travel 4 hours to Eastern Naz they could get to Plattsburgh, RPI, Union, Skidmore, and couple more Sunyacs...and yes, they played Vassar.

Obviously the Nescacs are not the only ultra serious academic schools... certainly not any more serious than Hopkins, Haverford, Swat, the other UAAs, Carleton, Macalester, W&L, and yes, Colorado Coll...

One might argue that NESCAC actually values athletics far more and has a higher percentage of athletes in the student body than some of the above.

And being an ultra serious academic school can both be a boon to recruiting and a barrier.

Sigh. Predictable. Even when simply stating facts.

And never said NESCACS are the only ultra serious academic schools—thinks for name-checking my alma mater in this list, btw—but it's a conference approach. And there is no other conference—save the UAA—that has a more comprehensive membership of schools with such a commitment to academic rigor.

Speaking of my alma mater's conference, I don't think Eastern Mennonite and Bridgewater have such concerns.

[northman]

In reading the preceding comments, I'm reminded that several things can be true at the same time.  As I've mentioned, I'm a volunteer assistant coach for a NESCAC athletic program, so I have some (though not complete) insight into how things work at these schools.

First, let's establish that NESCAC schools are certainly not academically superior to, or more elite than, a number of other D3 schools.  But they do share a common set of athletics guidelines.  As has been written, they are expected to minimize midweek travel.  For the Maine schools, it would be pushing the envelope unnecessarily to try and schedule midweek games that are any appreciable distance away.

It's my speculation...and it's only speculation...that Justin Serpone may be a slight exception to the rule among NESCAC coaches.  It wouldn't surprise me if he had a little more sway with the athletics department and the dean overseeing athletics at Amherst to schedule an away game in Montclair, NJ.  But I see that as the exception...and not an indicator that all NESCACs could or should do something similar.

[SKUD]

Speaking of the elite:
Wall Street Journal/College Pulse's 2024 Best Colleges in the U.S.
Four division III schools, 1 NESCAC, 1 SCIAC, & 2 NEWMAC in the top 10.
Rank School State Score
1 Princeton NJ 91.6
2 MIT MA 90.4
3 Yale CT 90.3
4 Stanford CA 90.1
5 Columbia NY 89.7
6 Harvard MA 89.5
7 University of Pennsylvania PA 89.4
8 Amherst College MA 88.4
9 Claremont McKenna College CA 88
10 Babson College MA 87.9

[coach analytics]

guys - I hear you about structural advantages due to location but I would point out that Amherst drove almost 4 hours for a Sunday late afternoon game vs national power Montclair State.  Amherst is the master at making sure their out of conference schedule is world class so they can host NCAA weekends as often as possible.

Bowdoin, seems like there are some Boston-based teams in LEC that are way better alternatives.

Middlebury is a bit more challenging but why not teams like Oneonta, ST L etc.

Also, beating a team 11-1 where your starting players play 60% of the game and score 7 goals seems like a "run up the score/pad your stats" strategy to me.

Also, it was the first game of the year, and many of those who logged significant minutes were first years (Sawin, Davis, Horowitz, Hoke, Nicholl, Dugan). I'm not so quick to fault the coaching staff for wanting to see them play significant minutes in their first collegiate game.

I can see your point about the first years but Randolph, Chae, Farrell Nilsson, Payne and ST Louis (6 veteran offensive field players) all logged considerable minutes in the second half of a 5-0 halftime game. A couple of them logged 65+ total minutes.  Then there is a news article bragging about an historic 11-1 win.  I know for a fact that there was considerable discussion about this game among several coaches that I know. Not sure how you describe this other than "running up the score".

[Another Mom]

I defer to your superior coaching knowledge-- and I certainly have no dog in this fight! -- but in Googling for the article you mention I could only find the standard release schools put out after each game. True, it does note it was a program record for most goals scored in a game, but that sort of fact is commonly noted, and it would have been odd *not* to note it.

Also, early in the season, wouldn't Coach Elias want to see how the team as a whole was meshing? How the new players were integrating with the seasoned ones?

At W&L (the only program I'm really familiar with) the Coach keeps tinkering with the lineup, and positioning of the players, into the season.

[College Soccer Observer]

guys - I hear you about structural advantages due to location but I would point out that Amherst drove almost 4 hours for a Sunday late afternoon game vs national power Montclair State.  Amherst is the master at making sure their out of conference schedule is world class so they can host NCAA weekends as often as possible.

Bowdoin, seems like there are some Boston-based teams in LEC that are way better alternatives.

Middlebury is a bit more challenging but why not teams like Oneonta, ST L etc.

Also, beating a team 11-1 where your starting players play 60% of the game and score 7 goals seems like a "run up the score/pad your stats" strategy to me.

Also, it was the first game of the year, and many of those who logged significant minutes were first years (Sawin, Davis, Horowitz, Hoke, Nicholl, Dugan). I'm not so quick to fault the coaching staff for wanting to see them play significant minutes in their first collegiate game.

I can see your point about the first years but Randolph, Chae, Farrell Nilsson, Payne and ST Louis (6 veteran offensive field players) all logged considerable minutes in the second half of a 5-0 halftime game. A couple of them logged 65+ total minutes.  Then there is a news article bragging about an historic 11-1 win.  I know for a fact that there was considerable discussion about this game among several coaches that I know. Not sure how you describe this other than "running up the score".

@Coach analytics I definitely see where you are coming from.  In the interests of accuracy, the score at halftime was 4-1, not 5-0.  Directly from the box score:  Here are the minutes for Midd's starters in descending order (Davis 77, Nilsson 71, Grady 69, Chae 64, Saint-Louis 58, Farrell 54, Randolph 53, Sawin 50, Nelson 47, Madden 45, Payne 44.  Please do keep in mind that this was the first game of the season and they had to get ready for a tough league game with Amherst.  Coach Elias subbed in 15 different players and a total of 26 guys saw time. 

[coach analytics]

thanks for the correction on halftime score

[Bucket]

I defer to your superior coaching knowledge-- and I certainly have no dog in this fight! -- but in Googling for the article you mention I could only find the standard release schools put out after each game. True, it does note it was a program record for most goals scored in a game, but that sort of fact is commonly noted, and it would have been odd *not* to note it.

Also, early in the season, wouldn't Coach Elias want to see how the team as a whole was meshing? How the new players were integrating with the seasoned ones?

At W&L (the only program I'm really familiar with) the Coach keeps tinkering with the lineup, and positioning of the players, into the season.

Exactly. Thank you.

On another note: I hope your son has enjoyed his time as a General and as a resident of Lexington. I'm both a Lex townie (faculty brat) and alum (third-generation); the school and place will always be a part of me.

[Another Mom]

/quote]

Exactly. Thank you.

On another note: I hope your son has enjoyed his time as a General and as a resident of Lexington. I'm both a Lex townie (faculty brat) and alum (third-generation); the school and place will always be a part of me.

My son has loved his time there, and I also love the school and envy your connection. It is a very special place!

[d4_Pace]

Regarding strength of schedule, it is very challenging for Bowdoin, Bates, Colby, and Midd to get quality non-conference games.  Due to the NESCAC schedule, they are looking at weekday games, and their remote locations limits the options somewhat.  They often wind up with games against GNAC or NAC teams who are in geographic proximity.  Not really feasible to expect these teams to hit the road for every non-conference game.  Bowdoin did travel to Wheaton and Midd went to Vassar for games this year.  Bates traveled to Emerson and Colby had a game at Coast Guard Academy that was canceled. As others have noted, the Massachusetts and Connecticut schools and even Hamilton have easier access to quality non conference opponents.

I have no reason to doubt this, but it is interesting how different perspectives are about how far things are away from each other in the Northeast than in Region X.  The distance from Bowdoin to Boston for a weekday game is pretty modest compared to some of the distances teams in Region X travel routinely on weekdays.  I always assumed the reason some NESCAC teams schedule weaker non-conference opponents is because they believe they won't need the SoS bump given the NESCAC conference schedule. After all, Bowdoin's SoS of .555 (as of last Wednesday) would be one of the higher numbers in Region X.

I'm sure I will get blasted for being elitist, but I can promise you that NESCAC schools do not think about SOS implications when scheduling mid-week out-of-conference games.

The primary considerations are—and always will be—missed class time, time away from campus, and budget.

And yes, I agree that it is ludicrous for (many) schools with billion (!)-dollar endowments to be crying about budgets, but it's a factor when trustees limit endowment draws to fund annual operating costs. At Middlebury, since the start of the pandemic, we have been dealing with 20-50 percent cuts to departmental operating budgets pegged to 2019 levels, this at a time with corresponding inflation pressures. It's a double whammy.

And while I am not privy to the athletics department budget numbers, I feel confident in stating that they have not been exempt and that travel budgets have been impacted, just like everything else.

This isn't elitist but it's flat out wrong. When I was on the staff our number one goal was to make the NCAA tournament and creating a schedule that would maximize our chance to do that was a huge consideration. The main way to do that was to make a schedule that we thought we maximized our SOS and winning percentage. Obviously we weren't going to drive 8 hours on a Tuesday, but SOS was a big factor.

[College Soccer Observer]

And the whole point is that is easier to do in suburban Boston than Maine or northern Vermont.

[PaulNewman]

Bucket, it's not the elitism, it's the double elitism...not only are we far superior to everyone else but we also demonstrate that superiority even more because of all the restrictions and barriers caused at least in part by our....yep, you guessed it, our superiority.

I do think Midd and the Maine schools have a distinct disadvantage because of geography....although I'm a little more sympathetic with the Maine group.  There's only so many Nescacs Babson can play...or Brandeis...or Wheaton MIT, etc.

I would think if Midd can travel 4 hours to Eastern Naz they could get to Plattsburgh, RPI, Union, Skidmore, and couple more Sunyacs...and yes, they played Vassar.

Obviously the Nescacs are not the only ultra serious academic schools... certainly not any more serious than Hopkins, Haverford, Swat, the other UAAs, Carleton, Macalester, W&L, and yes, Colorado Coll...

One might argue that NESCAC actually values athletics far more and has a higher percentage of athletes in the student body than some of the above.

And being an ultra serious academic school can both be a boon to recruiting and a barrier.

Sigh. Predictable. Even when simply stating facts.

And never said NESCACS are the only ultra serious academic schools—thinks for name-checking my alma mater in this list, btw—but it's a conference approach. And there is no other conference—save the UAA—that has a more comprehensive membership of schools with such a commitment to academic rigor.

Speaking of my alma mater's conference, I don't think Eastern Mennonite and Bridgewater have such concerns.

Bucket, can you not appreciate even a little how those of us not directly connected to NESCAC could view the repeated testaments to a very unique superiority and how we might react to seeing the reactions here to even the mildest of criticisms?  Sometimes feels like there are five GKs guarding the NESCAC net and nothing is gonna get past them.  What I was trying to say is that there is a long pattern of NESCAC followers citing the exclusivity of their schools (and conference) as a distinct point of pride while also citing that exclusivity as a justification for being different.  At least to an outsider that feels like circular affirmation that just keeps feeding itself.

Also don't get what EMU and Bridgewater have to do with W&L's non-conference choices.  Does conference affiliation mean that W&L takes academics a bit less seriously?  Or same with Hopkins, Swat, Haverford, F&M, etc in the Centennial?  Maybe you're referring to conference rules about one less week of the season, no Spring season, etc.  Are you suggesting that Midd, Amherst, Williams, Bowdoin, etc would ease the stringent parameters imposed by the conference if allowed to do so?

There were a lot of things I loved about Davidson.  What I did not like and still really don't like is the institution's constant self-promotion and readiness to tell anyone who would or will listen how incredible it is.  And of course that means the college succumbs to being acutely focused on USWNR rankings which is an issue that tends to consume many of the more elite academic institutions (and its alums/parents/students).

[northman]

Bucket, it's not the elitism, it's the double elitism...not only are we far superior to everyone else but we also demonstrate that superiority even more because of all the restrictions and barriers caused at least in part by our....yep, you guessed it, our superiority.

I do think Midd and the Maine schools have a distinct disadvantage because of geography....although I'm a little more sympathetic with the Maine group.  There's only so many Nescacs Babson can play...or Brandeis...or Wheaton MIT, etc.

I would think if Midd can travel 4 hours to Eastern Naz they could get to Plattsburgh, RPI, Union, Skidmore, and couple more Sunyacs...and yes, they played Vassar.

Obviously the Nescacs are not the only ultra serious academic schools... certainly not any more serious than Hopkins, Haverford, Swat, the other UAAs, Carleton, Macalester, W&L, and yes, Colorado Coll...

One might argue that NESCAC actually values athletics far more and has a higher percentage of athletes in the student body than some of the above.

And being an ultra serious academic school can both be a boon to recruiting and a barrier.

Sigh. Predictable. Even when simply stating facts.

And never said NESCACS are the only ultra serious academic schools—thinks for name-checking my alma mater in this list, btw—but it's a conference approach. And there is no other conference—save the UAA—that has a more comprehensive membership of schools with such a commitment to academic rigor.

Speaking of my alma mater's conference, I don't think Eastern Mennonite and Bridgewater have such concerns.

Bucket, can you not appreciate even a little how those of us not directly connected to NESCAC could view the repeated testaments to a very unique superiority and how we might react to seeing the reactions here to even the mildest of criticisms?  Sometimes feels like there are five GKs guarding the NESCAC net and nothing is gonna get past them.  What I was trying to say is that there is a long pattern of NESCAC followers citing the exclusivity of their schools (and conference) as a distinct point of pride while also citing that exclusivity as a justification for being different.  At least to an outsider that feels like circular affirmation that just keeps feeding itself.

Also don't get what EMU and Bridgewater have to do with W&L's non-conference choices.  Does conference affiliation mean that W&L takes academics a bit less seriously?  Or same with Hopkins, Swat, Haverford, F&M, etc in the Centennial?  Maybe you're referring to conference rules about one less week of the season, no Spring season, etc.  Are you suggesting that Midd, Amherst, Williams, Bowdoin, etc would ease the stringent parameters imposed by the conference if allowed to do so?

There were a lot of things I loved about Davidson.  What I did not like and still really don't like is the institution's constant self-promotion and readiness to tell anyone who would or will listen how incredible it is.  And of course that means the college succumbs to being acutely focused on USWNR rankings which is an issue that tends to consume many of the more elite academic institutions (and its alums/parents/students).

PN, Davidson is a great school...albeit it is D1 in soccer and not a NESCAC school...    That said, our older son revered an older Falmouth, Maine soccer player who played at Davidson.  He received a little bit of recruiting attention because of that local Maine connection.  My wife and I went to a trade show in Charlotte, NC when our son was in high school...and we traveled to Davidson to check out the campus.  I remember being awed by the soccer field (football pitch), which was immaculately cared for...like a putting green.  Plus, Davidson had just been to the Final Four and that banner was proudly posted at the stadium.

Perhaps the most resonant Maine connection to Davidson:  Falmouth, Maine native Brandon Barr played both soccer and basketball at little ole Falmouth (Maine) High School.  He went on to be a four year starter in basketball at Davidson alongside an obscure player named Stephen Curry.  Brandon's nickname was the White Lobster.  He and Stephen were close friends, and Brandon became Stephen's business manager.  Not a bad gig...

[PaulNewman]

LOL, northman,  I was halfway through your first paragraph and I couldn't wait to post back "but what about the White Lobster?!!!"

And then there it was!  The White Lobster was a heck of a shooter, too.  And yes, having a best friend called Steph Curry is what's called 'a good decision.'