NESCAC

[frank uible]

nescac1: Take a look at Ohio Wesleyan men's soccer.

[nescac1]

Frank, a few other schools are certainly up there, did not mean to suggest that Williams was a clear second, by any means.  I'd say there is a top tier: Messiah, and then a closley-grouped second tier: in no particular order, Williams, Ohio Wesleyan, TCNJ, Wheaton (IL), Trinity (TX).  I believe that Williams has produced the most individual talent from that second tier, although Ohio Wesleyan has had the most team success (of course, some of the very best Williams teams were from right before the Ephs were permitted to participate in the NCAA tourney, in the 1988-1990 era).  But clearly, the top three from NESCAC (Williams, Midd, Amherst) are right there with the top three from any other conference, and NESCAC is deeper than most conferences, for sure. 

[PaulNewman]

If judging based on past 5-7 years, I'd say Messiah, then Loras, then OWU.  Amherst and Williams are right there in the mix, although Amherst hurt by consecutive Elite 8 losses to Williams.

[D3soccerwatcher]

Certainly cannot leave Rutgers-Camden out of the discussion.  Those Jersey boys can play soccer.  Losing in the national final 2-1 in double OT.

As for strong conferences, I think you cannot overlook the CCIW.

[D3soccerwatcher]

Also it would be remiss to not include the CAC and NJAC as very strong D3 men's soccer conferences.   York College in the CAC is one team that has consistently given Messiah fits over the past several years.

[nescac1]

I don't think it's fair to include Rutgers-Camden and Loras in the same category as schools like Wheaton(IL), Williams, Ohio Wesleyan, TCNJ, Trinity(TX) etc., because those schools have been major powers for decades, and all have won titles over the years, and Rutgers-Camden and Loras are relative newcomers to being powerhouses ... let's see them maintain their elite status for more than a few years (I'm especially skeptical for Rutgers-Camden's staying power, since they have been helped by an influx of D1 transfers, a strategy that may or may not be sustainable over the long term). 

I did include NJAC as an elite D3 conference, and I would certainly include CCIW (CAC is a different story, because they are more a mediocre conference that happens to have two elite programs at the top).  But the point is not to quibble over which OTHER conferences may or may not be included in the conversation -- the point is, you were the one who claimed, based on a single game against Messiah in the Final Four that NESCAC was not a power conference (and by implication, that Williams was not a power program).  That's just flat-out silly, and it seems like you have now conceded the point by grouping NESCAC with CCIW, NJAC, etc., where I think it clearly belongs.   

[FourMoreYears]

Also it would be remiss to not include the CAC and NJAC as very strong D3 men's soccer conferences.   York College in the CAC is one team that has consistently given Messiah fits over the past several years.

The strength of a conference should be based on the entire conference, not just one or two teams at the top. It would be like moving ManU and Liverpool to the MLS and claiming it's a better league than the Premiere League.  I speak of no specific conference, only pointing out a logical approach to the discussion.

[Saint of Old]

Wheaton(84, 97)
OWU (98, 11)
Messiah (A Few)

All of the above play with at least 2 stars on their chest and have been strong in the modern Era.

In order to be in the conversation, that much is required from any other squad wanting to make a claim.

In all fairness, Williams by the numbers and by the results are clearly the closest challenger as one more title (very possible) would also supply the requisite criteria.

Beyond that, I think that Loras has been Balling over the last decade, but need that championship to make it count.
Ditto for Amherst.

An extremely strong bias keeps me from analysing the St. Lawrence Saints.

The Jersey Boys have to dance a few more years to convince most people, but I am a believer.

There are many teams that are right there, but sadly have to Win it all to get their rightful due.
Brandies won it all in '76, and have been playing good soccer the last few years.
Could Stevens be the best team never to win a title? They are extremely good.
U of R, Vassar and Skidmore have been steadily building good teams, but are a few runs from making the jump from Regional to National Elite.

[LaPaz]

That OWU team in 98 beat Williams 1-0. That was one of the ugliest wins I have ever seen. WILLIAMS dominated them and just could not score. They had solid athletes but did not deserve the title that year and therefore being on your top teams OF ALL TIME. NO WAY. Jay Martin Lane, what ego.give me a break.

[PaulNewman]

LaPaz, I think you're out on a limb on this one.  You're going to base your opinion on OWU on one game in 1998 and your negative perception of Martin?  Regardless of what you think of him, OWU is arguably the #1 program in history and certainly no worse than #3.  I don't know about '98, but at least in recent years they have played a very attractive, possession-oriented style and on the field look more like Messiah than any other D3.  Have you looked at OWU's historical record over a 30 year period? 

[PaulNewman]

OWU -- #1 in overall NCAA appearances (36?); 2 NCAA titles; 2 NCAA runner-up finishes; 8 Final Fours

[frank uible]

Why the antipathy toward Martin?

[Saint of Old]

Williams '98 squad was CLASS. Trust me, I know how good they were!!! The fact is however, OWU were champs.
Also, anyone that could have beat that team (no matter how) deserved a title.
I was not saying who had the better individual team, but what programs can make a solid argument as being in a class by themselves while using objective criteria.
The most objective criteria is a Championship, plain and simple.
OWU has 2, no one relevant in the last 3 decades has more (except Messiah).

I have absolutely no affiliation or bias toward OWU, but as a classic poet once said "Game recognize game".

[frank uible]

Bill Parcells coined an epigram about the scoreboard.

[LaPaz]

Ok...I thought your argument was actual teams. Indeed SLU of that year, the year before their national championship went to PK's with Williams and lost in a snowstorm. That '98 SLU team also could have won it all and maybe motivated them for '99. who knows

apathy toward Martin is I guess based on what I have heard in national circles for years. I agree he produces great teams year after year and is a great coach, but at least years ago he was known for his massive EGO as much for his masterful coaching.