NESCAC

[PaulNewman]

I also would like to know how many USSDA players were on the National Champion, Tufts, just for curiosity sake.... Does anyone know?

Off the top of my head, the MA DAPs include: Greenwood, Miele, Kramer, Santos

I think one of those came from the Bolts non-DAP team.

[Corazon]

Not sure about the Boston Bolts comment.  The Tufts starting goalkeeper came from that academy.  If you read through D1 commitment pages, it is very obvious the better college players are coming from the USSDA system.  While there are exceptions, the concentration of talent is far higher and therefore kids are more college ready in most cases.  Seacoast recently produced freshman starters at Northeastern and Dartmouth.

Last year's Seacoast 18s also graduated 2 players to D2 who I believe would have been considered among the very top players in the league as freshmen if they would have gone to NESCAC.  Last year's Bolts sent players to Stanford, Duke, BC and Northeastern, among other D1s as scholarship recipients.  The BC and Northeastern kids played a lot as freshmen.  Like I've said, you simply can not compare club vs Academy in terms of impact players.  I know my comments will not be popular among most readers on this board, but I'm simply stating reality and not trying to offend.  Not sure why this is such a hard concept to understand. 

[PaulNewman]

Not sure about the Boston Bolts comment.  The Tufts starting goalkeeper came from that academy.  If you read through D1 commitment pages, it is very obvious the better college players are coming from the USSDA system.  While there are exceptions, the concentration of talent is far higher and therefore kids are more college ready in most cases.  Seacoast recently produced freshman starters at Northeastern and Dartmouth.

Last year's Seacoast 18s also graduated 2 players to D2 who I believe would have been considered among the very top players in the league as freshmen if they would have gone to NESCAC.  Last year's Bolts sent players to Stanford, Duke, BC and Northeastern, among other D1s as scholarship recipients.  The BC and Northeastern kids played a lot as freshmen.  Like I've said, you simply can not compare club vs Academy in terms of impact players.  I know my comments will not be popular among most readers on this board, but I'm simply stating reality and not trying to offend.  Not sure why this is such a hard concept to understand.

Not sure who you are referring to.  Just to be clear, I don't find your comments controversial.  DAP is superior and will account for the vast majority of D1 slots, and DAP kids will have an edge in D3 recruiting as well.  I think the confusion is coming in by mixing D1 and D3 together.  A particular player might have had D1 offers but the D3 level is not comparable to the D1 level in general, and I say that as a D3 parent/fan.  And, barring rare exceptions, kids who can play (I mean really play) at Stanford, Duke, BC, etc and even the Ivies are not going to pick even the most attractive D3s instead.

[Nutmeg]

Not sure about the Boston Bolts comment.  The Tufts starting goalkeeper came from that academy.  If you read through D1 commitment pages, it is very obvious the better college players are coming from the USSDA system.  While there are exceptions, the concentration of talent is far higher and therefore kids are more college ready in most cases.  Seacoast recently produced freshman starters at Northeastern and Dartmouth.

Last year's Seacoast 18s also graduated 2 players to D2 who I believe would have been considered among the very top players in the league as freshmen if they would have gone to NESCAC.  Last year's Bolts sent players to Stanford, Duke, BC and Northeastern, among other D1s as scholarship recipients.  The BC and Northeastern kids played a lot as freshmen.  Like I've said, you simply can not compare club vs Academy in terms of impact players.  I know my comments will not be popular among most readers on this board, but I'm simply stating reality and not trying to offend.  Not sure why this is such a hard concept to understand.

Not sure who you are referring to.  Just to be clear, I don't find your comments controversial.  DAP is superior and will account for the vast majority of D1 slots, and DAP kids will have an edge in D3 recruiting as well.  I think the confusion is coming in by mixing D1 and D3 together.  A particular player might have had D1 offers but the D3 level is not comparable to the D1 level in general, and I say that as a D3 parent/fan.  And, barring rare exceptions, kids who can play (I mean really play) at Stanford, Duke, BC, etc and even the Ivies are not going to pick even the most attractive D3s instead.

No one anywhere stated that D3 is equal or better than D1....just that some kids may choose a D3 school given religious or education opportunities...and I am aware of a few that have done so...

[Nutmeg]

Not sure about the Boston Bolts comment.  The Tufts starting goalkeeper came from that academy.  If you read through D1 commitment pages, it is very obvious the better college players are coming from the USSDA system.  While there are exceptions, the concentration of talent is far higher and therefore kids are more college ready in most cases.  Seacoast recently produced freshman starters at Northeastern and Dartmouth.

Last year's Seacoast 18s also graduated 2 players to D2 who I believe would have been considered among the very top players in the league as freshmen if they would have gone to NESCAC.  Last year's Bolts sent players to Stanford, Duke, BC and Northeastern, among other D1s as scholarship recipients.  The BC and Northeastern kids played a lot as freshmen.  Like I've said, you simply can not compare club vs Academy in terms of impact players.  I know my comments will not be popular among most readers on this board, but I'm simply stating reality and not trying to offend.  Not sure why this is such a hard concept to understand.

Not sure who you are referring to.  Just to be clear, I don't find your comments controversial.  DAP is superior and will account for the vast majority of D1 slots, and DAP kids will have an edge in D3 recruiting as well.  I think the confusion is coming in by mixing D1 and D3 together.  A particular player might have had D1 offers but the D3 level is not comparable to the D1 level in general, and I say that as a D3 parent/fan.  And, barring rare exceptions, kids who can play (I mean really play) at Stanford, Duke, BC, etc and even the Ivies are not going to pick even the most attractive D3s instead.

Sure, BC, Stanford and Duke are no brainers....but what about D1 schools like Indiana State v. A school like Bowdoin, University of Chicago, Emory, etc....

[Corazon]

NCAC, my comments were primarily meant for the posters who said the very top Academy players might be good, but the others are no different than the good club teams. In New England, Bolts and Seacoast Academies were specifically mentioned as being no different than other good New England club teams (that is 2/3!). Being very familiar with the New England club soccer scene, I found that notion ludicrous.

I would agree that many bench players from Academy teams are no better than the top club players, but no way that a club team will beat a USSDA team as the upper half of any Academy team will be far better than anyone on a club team with a few rare exceptions. You can take this same club vs USSDA analogy and apply it to D1 vs D3 soccer. Would Amherst beat UCONN? No chance. Would Amherst beat Northeastern? Still highly unlikely.

I am not necessarily pro-Academy. I recognize it is not for everyone. I only posted of USSDA players going to NESCACs as I thought they were notable gets for the NESCAC coaching staff. It doesn't mean every USSDA player will be an impact player in the NESCAC but the chances of them becoming one is much higher than a normal club player. I don't know every incoming recruit I've posted about, but the ones I know about, I'm highly confident will be impact players in the NESCAC.

USSDA is always a sensitive topic in the youth soccer landscape. If it weren't, people wouldn't have given me negative karmas. Invariably, the USSDA bashers come from the following groups: 1) those whose kids didn't make the teams but felt they were good enough and felt they were screwed, 2) parents who knew their kids weren't good enough but resented the top players on their clubs leaving, rendering their teams weaker, and 3) club coaches whose non-USSDA clubs get decimated with their best players leaving and 4) HS coaches and parents whose best players can't play and they don't understand why not.

As for the questions regarding how many of the Tufts starters played Academy, I believe the answer is the majority. I haven't yet researched it fully, but I was curious about the Princeton, NJ connection so I looked into it at one time and found they all played Academy ball at the same club (Match Fit Chelsea) except for Kramer who went to prep school in New England (Revs) so you can add Hoppenot, Pinheiro and Holliday to the list. Yes folks, academy players are usually pretty good.

[Corazon]

Fran O'Leary is back to coaching. He is the new head coach for UMASS.

[Nutmeg]

NCAC, my comments were primarily meant for the posters who said the very top Academy players might be good, but the others are no different than the good club teams. In New England, Bolts and Seacoast Academies were specifically mentioned as being no different than other good New England club teams (that is 2/3!). Being very familiar with the New England club soccer scene, I found that notion ludicrous.

I would agree that many bench players from Academy teams are no better than the top club players, but no way that a club team will beat a USSDA team as the upper half of any Academy team will be far better than anyone on a club team with a few rare exceptions. You can take this same club vs USSDA analogy and apply it to D1 vs D3 soccer. Would Amherst beat UCONN? No chance. Would Amherst beat Northeastern? Still highly unlikely.

I am not necessarily pro-Academy. I recognize it is not for everyone. I only posted of USSDA players going to NESCACs as I thought they were notable gets for the NESCAC coaching staff. It doesn't mean every USSDA player will be an impact player in the NESCAC but the chances of them becoming one is much higher than a normal club player. I don't know every incoming recruit I've posted about, but the ones I know about, I'm highly confident will be impact players in the NESCAC.

USSDA is always a sensitive topic in the youth soccer landscape. If it weren't, people wouldn't have given me negative karmas. Invariably, the USSDA bashers come from the following groups: 1) those whose kids didn't make the teams but felt they were good enough and felt they were screwed, 2) parents who knew their kids weren't good enough but resented the top players on their clubs leaving, rendering their teams weaker, and 3) club coaches whose non-USSDA clubs get decimated with their best players leaving and 4) HS coaches and parents whose best players can't play and they don't understand why not.

As for the questions regarding how many of the Tufts starters played Academy, I believe the answer is the majority. I haven't yet researched it fully, but I was curious about the Princeton, NJ connection so I looked into it at one time and found they all played Academy ball at the same club (Match Fit Chelsea) except for Kramer who went to prep school in New England (Revs) so you can add Hoppenot, Pinheiro and Holliday to the list. Yes folks, academy players are usually pretty good.

Good summary!

[PaulNewman]

Good post above Corazon.  There is actually a 4th category of resentment towards DAP, which may overlap with some of your others.  DAP was intended to provide a road to the national team pools, professional play, or at a minimum D1 college play.  D3 has never been part of the mission.  So there is a view that some may view coaches and families that use DAP for D3 as taking advantage of an opportunity for which it was not intended.  I completely agree with you that even the best non-DAP teams could not compete (at least not consistently) with the DAP teams.  That said, there are individual players from non-DAP clubs who can compete and who desire many of the same schools as DAP kids who end up going D3.  From that standpoint, there can be some resentment that those DAP kids who go D3 get an advantage (from admissions and/or D3 coaches) that seems unfair.  The non-DAP player may have to work a little harder and may have to wait his turn a little longer to get a completely full look.  Or he may have to prove that some coaches made a mistake by focusing too much on DAP.  Savonen from Brandeis is a perfect example.  I will go out on a limb and assume he might have entertained offers from top NESCACs.  Instead, he went on to become one of the all-time best players in Brandeis history, made (I think) 1st team Academic All-American (so no question would have done well academically at any of the NESCACs) and made All-American teams as well.  Great player, great student, great kid.  He also in addition to not playing DAP (and when from the far end of Cape Cod DAP isn't really an option) went to a public school instead of a fancy prep school.  I'm not suggesting that there are a ton of kids like this (and even fewer with the kind of college career he had), but there are a good number, and for that kind of kid there may be a little extra motivation in the tank.

[Brother Flounder]

Well, I see I am getting my daily negative NESCAC  marks again....  HMMMM.  Maybe I won't post anymore... even when I am away from the board for a week I seem to garner a few.....

[D3soccerwatcher]

Interesting article on the topic:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2014/08/25/youth-soccer-players-face-tough-choices-with-academy-system/iktagUJXCTKxITaiDl9VwM/story.html

Very interesting and I agree with most points. If you are one of the top players with good college potential, I think, generally, USSDA, is the best way to go....given the training, traveling and commitment involved...prepares you better for college soccer....

There are some parts of the college soccer experience that HS soccer prepares you for better then USSDA...

1) PRE-SEASON CAMP - two weeks of double or triple sessions (no such thing is USSDA)
2) FITNESS TESTS - timed runs, etc. (doesn't exist in many USSDA programs)
3) TRAINING EVERYDAY IN SEASON - HS does this (USSDA doesn't get close)
4) PLAYING 2-3 TIMES PER WEEK - regular occurrence in HS and in college, not in USSDA
5) JUGGLING ACADEMICS AND SOCCER EVERYDAY - HS yes, USSDA no
6) CAMARADERIE - in HS play with your same class or four years, USSDA rosters change every year and frequently within the season - guys play for their scholarships as much or more than they play for their teams
7) PRIDE - play for your school and your community - no such thing in USSDA: players come from all over, mostly just parents attend games
8) MEDIA ATTENTION - learn to handle extensive local media coverage for HS soccer, no local media coverage of  USSDA teams

These are just the areas that come to mind.  I'm sure I'm missing some.  Please chime in.

[PaulNewman]

SW, you can't count juggling academics, unless you want to argue that USSDA players don't go to school.  The time demands are greater, especially when calculated over the full year.  I will say that forcing kids to opt out of high school is one of big downsides of DAP, and especially for kids tracking for D3 where giving up HS soccer is not worth it.

[D3soccerwatcher]

Over the entire year the USSDA may be demanding in terms of juggling academics just by virtue of having a much longer season, but while in season HS is more demanding in juggling academics as student athletes are training, playing and/or traveling 6 out of 7 days every week during the season.  Also HS athletes must maintain their academic standing to participate in HS sports...the USSDA doesn't track or care about their players academic performance.

[D3soccerwatcher]

As for the questions regarding how many of the Tufts starters played Academy, I believe the answer is the majority. I haven't yet researched it fully, but I was curious about the Princeton, NJ connection so I looked into it at one time and found they all played Academy ball at the same club (Match Fit Chelsea) except for Kramer who went to prep school in New England (Revs) so you can add Hoppenot, Pinheiro and Holliday to the list. Yes folks, academy players are usually pretty good.

I did some digging on where this past Fall's Messiah roster stands in terms of USSDA players (Flying Weasel the Messiah expert on these boards will have to confirm).  Looks like they had just 2 or maybe 3 of their 25+ player roster who where truly USSDA players.  Looks like the vast majority where HS players...including the 2013 and 2014 POY's.  That being said, I think I recall reading in that book about Messiah, that Messiah (going back to the Brandt days) likes to find those really good players who sorta fly under the radar.  Again we'll need Flying Weasel to shed some light on this.

[Ishmael55]

The view from Southern California where there are many NESCAC supporters, many really good youth soccer players, and many USSDA programs:
   1.   Top to bottom of the roster, USSDA gets the best player who want that experience, and fit.  There are several parts to that as things apply to NESCAC:
•   When all things are equal, our USDDA clubs have the overall best rosters.  There are players in the club programs who are as good as USSDA player's, but overall, if a good club team plays a USSDA team, you expect the USDDA team to prevail.  There are exceptions in terms of teams, and there are even more exceptions with respect to individual players.  But overall where we live the USSDA experience is better from a pure soccer perspective.   
•   Not all USSDA clubs are equal—and it's not the fault of anyone who runs the non-USSDA clubs.  Galaxy and Chivas (or whomever they will be in the future) have more money and can bring in more stuff, including more players that don't fit the pay to play model which is the club paradigm in So Cal.   If you watched an unsanctioned league play in the Lennox area of los Angeles you would see astounding youth skill, but regrettably not very much of that soccer skill is going to make it through to the next level.  Notable exceptions:  Zardes and Villareal on the MLS Galaxy roster.  (They attended Leuzinger High School.  I would be in shock to hear that any NESCAC recruiter has been there).  Unfortunately, many others are left behind.  While Galaxy and Chivas have money, the balance of the USSDA teams in SoCal need money—and though I believe that they work earnestly to bring in players based on merit, money is an issue.  A coach at a championship D2 program here once observed of our club team which he coached and championed: "there is an inverse relationship between the ability to play and the ability to pay"
•   There are always outliers... really good players who are not USSDA whom you see as good players—D1, D2, D3--wherever.  But if you're a D3 coach—you're not going to Lennox –you have a recruiting budget that leaves room in a thimble, and you would be foolish not to use that money in the USSDA showcases etc.—there is a lot of bang for your buck there.   
   2.   NESCAC is different in terms of academics and location.  There is a good bit of variation top to bottom on NESCAC in terms of academics, but even at the bottom, it's pretty "selective".  As to location, more than half of the schools are in what we would refer to as cow counties (Amherst, Williams, Middlebury, Hamilton and all the Maine schools). 
   3.    If you're going to a NESCAC school you're going for the school experience –the academics and contacts you hope to make—what Notre dame calls the 40 year commitment—not to make your living playing soccer.   That is a future that any sane parent would encourage, but not every 17-18 year old who lives to have the rock on his foot with the opportunity to send a laser to the area recognizes. 
   4.    Its all a crap shoot for the coaches at D3.  Is the USSDA kid who showed up a kid who still loves the game and wants to work his ass off after  he has seen his USSDA teammates go to UCSB, UCKLA, Indiana, Notre dame etc?    What about the kid who no one recruited but showed up with fire, despite the fact that he was not a USSDA player?

   Its much easier to coach and recruit on Sunday night with a glass of scotch behind you. USSDA is a lot of good, but there are a lot of good players out here who are not USSDA.