NESCAC

[All NESCAC]

NESCAC emphasizes participation in all things over spectating.

Agree with Frank.  Also D3SW, these attendance stats for NESCAC are guestimates and unreliable at best.  There are no stadiums in NESCAC, so spectators mostly stand around the pitch.  The attendance is the scorekeeper's estimate, and could be off significantly.  Further, for weekend NESCAC games (i.e., Saturdays), all of one school's varsity athletic teams for the fall season play the other school's teams, so multiple games are taking place simultaneously.  There could be a football game, field hockey match, and two soccer games all taking place within a short distance of each other.  Fans frequently circulate among the games, and end up watching the most exciting one.  There might be 150 fans at men's soccer in the first half, but 500 at the end of an exciting match.

Agree with the participation over spectating.  The NESCAC's are small but a very large % of Athletes on campus who would rather be doing than watching.  Good crowds are typical at Conn home games due to location of field (center of campus) and no football.

[madzillagd]

To be fair, NESCAC may lead in canine attendance in the nation though. 

[1970s NESCAC Player]

To be fair, NESCAC may lead in canine attendance in the nation though.

Yes, madzilla, I should have posted that most of the spectators stand around the pitch with their dogs . . .

[D3soccerwatcher]

NESCAC emphasizes participation in all things over spectating.

Agree with Frank.  Also D3SW, these attendance stats for NESCAC are guestimates and unreliable at best.  There are no stadiums in NESCAC, so spectators mostly stand around the pitch.  The attendance is the scorekeeper's estimate, and could be off significantly.  Further, for weekend NESCAC games (i.e., Saturdays), all of one school's varsity athletic teams for the fall season play the other school's teams, so multiple games are taking place simultaneously.  There could be a football game, field hockey match, and two soccer games all taking place within a short distance of each other.  Fans frequently circulate among the games, and end up watching the most exciting one.  There might be 150 fans at men's soccer in the first half, but 500 at the end of an exciting match.

I would say that these all "issues" faced by other schools as well.  Let's not look at Messiah as they have been drawing huge crowds to their games for decades which are literally in the middle of nowhere...but that's a whole other conversation. 

Instead let's look at Wheaton (IL) for example.  Based in Chicagoland.  They have several other CCIW and D3 schools close by, not to mention D1 schools.   And yes for CCIW conference games, all the teams from both schools frequently play each on the same weekend.  They have other top notch Wheaton Fall sports to compete with including a Top 20 Women's Cross Country team, a Top 20 football team, and even a top 20 women's soccer team.  They have an unparalleled number professional sports to compete with including two MLB teams (Cubs and Sox), NFL team (Bears), NBA team (Bulls), NHL team (Black Hawks), AHL Team (Wolves), NASCAR (ChicagoLand Speedway), and last but not least the Chicago Fire of the MLS.  There is no D3 men's soccer team in the country with more competition for fans than Wheaton,  In addition, the Wheaton soccer field is wedged in a shoe box between RR tracks on one side and dorms on the other.  There are walls behind the goal lines that on one side are so close to the field they are heavily padded to protect the players.  And the bleachers are so close, fans can barely see the near touchline from most seats.  And yet with all this working against them, Wheaton consistently outdraws every NESCAC team by a mile.

[Nutmeg]

To be fair, NESCAC may lead in canine attendance in the nation though.

That's a good one!

[frank uible]

If your correspondent were a bettor, he might place a small sum favoring the truth of the proposition that NESCAC is most probably not unhappy with the level of attendance at its men's soccer games, whatever the causes of such level may be.

[D3soccerwatcher]

If your correspondent were a bettor, he might place a small sum favoring the truth of the proposition that NESCAC is most probably not unhappy with the level of attendance at its men's soccer games, whatever the causes of such level may be.

The "truth of the proposition" that NESCAC is "not unhappy with the [low] level of attendance at its men's' soccer games" is very consistent with everything I've observed about NESCAC.  It's rather unfortunate that NESCAC and its member institutions are so disconnected from the very players that they purport to represent that they perpetuate this type of attitude about attendance, of which you seem to have a fairly high level of certainty.  And here's the disconnect...and you can ask any current or former college soccer player on these boards...great players LOVE to play for great crowds.

The fact that you point out, that NESCAC isn't concerned with such things is disappointing for the players.  And I suppose that's one way to go.  Or they could take a page out the Messiah or Wheaton (IL) playbook, and embrace and foster the large crowds, and build the facilities to accommodate them.  While I know there are many things that soccer recruits consider when picking a school, attendance at games is one of them.  It's unfortunate its not something that NESCAC cares too much about.  Because certainly with the quality of NESCAC soccer that is so heralded on these boards, NESCAC should surely be able to draw large crowds for their men's soccer teams.  Perhaps one day they will.

[Nutmeg]

Yes, players like crowds. But players like highly selective educational schools like many of the NESCACS and that is more important to the typical NESCAC student athlete. By the way, attendance didn't seem to hamper Tufts this year.... Yes, attendance is nice and many NESCAC schools schedule football games the same time as soccer games... This is one thing that could be changed to help soccer attendance...

[D3soccerwatcher]

Yes, players like crowds. But players like highly selective educational schools like many of the NESCACS and that is more important to the typical NESCAC student athlete. By the way, attendance didn't seem to hamper Tufts this year.... Yes, attendance is nice and many NESCAC schools schedule football games the same time as soccer games... This is one thing that could be changed to help soccer attendance...

You are falling victim to the tyranny of the "OR".  You seem to think that it is either great academics OR great soccer that draws great crowds.  You need a new paradigm...the genius of the "AND".  Wheaton (IL) can rival most schools on academics AND have a great soccer team that draws more fans then almost all other D3 schools in the nation.

Since Tufts has only made the NCAA National Tournament twice in the past 16 years (or more), hard to conclude that the lack of attendance hasn't hampered them.

[Nutmeg]

Yes, players like crowds. But players like highly selective educational schools like many of the NESCACS and that is more important to the typical NESCAC student athlete. By the way, attendance didn't seem to hamper Tufts this year.... Yes, attendance is nice and many NESCAC schools schedule football games the same time as soccer games... This is one thing that could be changed to help soccer attendance...

You are falling victim to the tyranny of the "OR".  You seem to think that it is either great academics OR great soccer that draws great crowds.  You need a new paradigm...the genius of the "AND".  Wheaton (IL) can rival most schools on academics AND have a great soccer team that draws more fans then almost all other D3 schools in the nation.

Since Tufts has only made the NCAA National Tournament twice in the past 16 years (or more), hard to conclude that the lack of attendance hasn't hampered them.

I am not familiar with Wheaton' schedule but are their home football games played at the same time as their soccer games? And is it your contention that Wheaton rivals the Nescac schools for academics... i.e., Bowdoin, Williams, Tufts, Amherst, etc.....?

Also, I just checked and Wheaton hasn't won a national championship in practically 20 years.....

[All NESCAC]

If your correspondent were a bettor, he might place a small sum favoring the truth of the proposition that NESCAC is most probably not unhappy with the level of attendance at its men's soccer games, whatever the causes of such level may be.

The "truth of the proposition" that NESCAC is "not unhappy with the [low] level of attendance at its men's' soccer games" is very consistent with everything I've observed about NESCAC.  It's rather unfortunate that NESCAC and its member institutions are so disconnected from the very players that they purport to represent that they perpetuate this type of attitude about attendance, of which you seem to have a fairly high level of certainty.  And here's the disconnect...and you can ask any current or former college soccer player on these boards...great players LOVE to play for great crowds.

The fact that you point out, that NESCAC isn't concerned with such things is disappointing for the players.  And I suppose that's one way to go.  Or they could take a page out the Messiah or Wheaton (IL) playbook, and embrace and foster the large crowds, and build the facilities to accommodate them.  While I know there are many things that soccer recruits consider when picking a school, attendance at games is one of them.  It's unfortunate its not something that NESCAC cares too much about.  Because certainly with the quality of NESCAC soccer that is so heralded on these boards, NESCAC should surely be able to draw large crowds for their men's soccer teams.  Perhaps one day they will.

The truth of the matter is most colleges D1, D2 and D3 don't have much of a following/crowd/attendance for Men's soccer.  Yes there are a few (very few), but if you are getting 250+ attendance at most games (regardless of the Division) then you are doing pretty well.  I've been to many a D1 game (ACC and others) and they hover around this mark.  Yes the players like to play in front of big crowds (biggest NESCAC I've seen is about 1500 at Conn's homecoming--remember no football at Conn), but this is no different than these players had in Club, DAP or HS---small crowds, thus it really isn't a let down because they are used to low fan attendance.  Wheaton (IL) and a handful of others seem to be rare exceptions....and good for them....but I don't see the NESCAC (or other leagues or Divisions) changing much any time soon.  Football dwarfs soccer in this country for spectator attendance at the college level (at any level) and it does so on the NESCAC campuses as well providing a very big hurdle unlikely to be overcome.  Combine that with the NESCAC students would rather be doing than watching and you arrive at the attendance results we have. 

[Nutmeg]

If your correspondent were a bettor, he might place a small sum favoring the truth of the proposition that NESCAC is most probably not unhappy with the level of attendance at its men's soccer games, whatever the causes of such level may be.

The "truth of the proposition" that NESCAC is "not unhappy with the [low] level of attendance at its men's' soccer games" is very consistent with everything I've observed about NESCAC.  It's rather unfortunate that NESCAC and its member institutions are so disconnected from the very players that they purport to represent that they perpetuate this type of attitude about attendance, of which you seem to have a fairly high level of certainty.  And here's the disconnect...and you can ask any current or former college soccer player on these boards...great players LOVE to play for great crowds.

The fact that you point out, that NESCAC isn't concerned with such things is disappointing for the players.  And I suppose that's one way to go.  Or they could take a page out the Messiah or Wheaton (IL) playbook, and embrace and foster the large crowds, and build the facilities to accommodate them.  While I know there are many things that soccer recruits consider when picking a school, attendance at games is one of them.  It's unfortunate its not something that NESCAC cares too much about.  Because certainly with the quality of NESCAC soccer that is so heralded on these boards, NESCAC should surely be able to draw large crowds for their men's soccer teams.  Perhaps one day they will.

The truth of the matter is most colleges D1, D2 and D3 don't have much of a following/crowd/attendance for Men's soccer.  Yes there are a few (very few), but if you are getting 250+ attendance at most games (regardless of the Division) then you are doing pretty well.  I've been to many a D1 game (ACC and others) and they hover around this mark.  Yes the players like to play in front of big crowds (biggest NESCAC I've seen is about 1500 at Conn's homecoming--remember no football at Conn), but this is no different than these players had in Club, DAP or HS---small crowds, thus it really isn't a let down because they are used to low fan attendance.  Wheaton (IL) and a handful of others seem to be rare exceptions....and good for them....but I don't see the NESCAC (or other leagues or Divisions) changing much any time soon.  Football dwarfs soccer in this country for spectator attendance at the college level (at any level) and it does so on the NESCAC campuses as well providing a very big hurdle unlikely to be overcome.  Combine that with the NESCAC students would rather be doing than watching and you arrive at the attendance results we have.

Good analysis!

[PaulNewman]

I think part of what drives some crazy about NESCAC and some of its fans is that no matter the topic the answer is always that NESCAC is the best.  And being the best always seems to have the overlay of that special brand of New England elitism, where the NESCACs are almost the extension programs of the Andovers and Exeters in the region (prep college as it were).

Not big crowds?  Well, that's by design.  Participation over spectating.  Athletic, active student bodies.  Plus all sports play at the same time (and somehow this is construed as unique to NESCAC when a ton of other D3s also play all their sports on the same day and around the same times).

Didn't win this year or get enough NCAA bids?  Well, that's because NESCAC plays less games and has no spring season, which of course is spun as NESCAC schools doing collegiate athletics the right way and kept in perspective with respect to the overriding academic missions (even though there are a lot of similar non-NESCAC schools who do the same sorts of things and are even more strict in terms of admissions pull for athletes (need go further than Swat, Haverford, Johns Hopkins, Wash U, Carleton, Oberlin, etc).  But even despite the self-imposed, supposedly higher order restrictions, we're still the best anyway.

Tufts just own a national title.  Wheaton hasn't won one in 20 years.  Of course Wheaton has been in the NCAA tourney for how many consecutive years, and often with very deep runs?  And Tufts at least in recent years hasn't had even two NCAA appearances back to back.  Well, let's go back to talking about what an absolute bloodbath the NESCAC is.  The team beat each other and instead of the 6 or 7 bids they deserve they only get 3-4.

NESCAC fans sometimes seem to get defensive and even defiant when confronted by lukewarm reactions.  But some of that is on NESCAC.  Some seem to prefer keeping NESCAC, its schools, and its image as insular as possible, which of course contributes to the country-clubbish, exclusive aura.  Despite the complaints, one wonders if the some NESCAC supporters prefer the negative reactions from outside as confirmation of how special the schools and their athletics and academics are.  In other words, I'm not sure the NESCAC family really wants to be embraced (which might have the effect of bringing them too much into a bigger fold, a bigger family, with some perceived dilution of their exclusivity).

In short, for some of us outside the NESCAC grand ballroom, the whole NESCAC self-congratulatory industry can be a bit much to take.

[D3soccerwatcher]

If your correspondent were a bettor, he might place a small sum favoring the truth of the proposition that NESCAC is most probably not unhappy with the level of attendance at its men's soccer games, whatever the causes of such level may be.

The "truth of the proposition" that NESCAC is "not unhappy with the [low] level of attendance at its men's' soccer games" is very consistent with everything I've observed about NESCAC.  It's rather unfortunate that NESCAC and its member institutions are so disconnected from the very players that they purport to represent that they perpetuate this type of attitude about attendance, of which you seem to have a fairly high level of certainty.  And here's the disconnect...and you can ask any current or former college soccer player on these boards...great players LOVE to play for great crowds.

The fact that you point out, that NESCAC isn't concerned with such things is disappointing for the players.  And I suppose that's one way to go.  Or they could take a page out the Messiah or Wheaton (IL) playbook, and embrace and foster the large crowds, and build the facilities to accommodate them.  While I know there are many things that soccer recruits consider when picking a school, attendance at games is one of them.  It's unfortunate its not something that NESCAC cares too much about.  Because certainly with the quality of NESCAC soccer that is so heralded on these boards, NESCAC should surely be able to draw large crowds for their men's soccer teams.  Perhaps one day they will.

The truth of the matter is most colleges D1, D2 and D3 don't have much of a following/crowd/attendance for Men's soccer.  Yes there are a few (very few), but if you are getting 250+ attendance at most games (regardless of the Division) then you are doing pretty well.  I've been to many a D1 game (ACC and others) and they hover around this mark.  Yes the players like to play in front of big crowds (biggest NESCAC I've seen is about 1500 at Conn's homecoming--remember no football at Conn), but this is no different than these players had in Club, DAP or HS---small crowds, thus it really isn't a let down because they are used to low fan attendance.  Wheaton (IL) and a handful of others seem to be rare exceptions....and good for them....but I don't see the NESCAC (or other leagues or Divisions) changing much any time soon.  Football dwarfs soccer in this country for spectator attendance at the college level (at any level) and it does so on the NESCAC campuses as well providing a very big hurdle unlikely to be overcome.  Combine that with the NESCAC students would rather be doing than watching and you arrive at the attendance results we have.

The truth?  Really?  You should probably know what the truth is before you attempt to define it.  Your contention that "there are few (very few)" college soccer programs at any NCAA level with "much of a following/crowd/attendance" is simply FALSE!  Below is the list of the top 50 teams' average attendance per game across all D1, D2, and D3 programs.  There are many (very many) college soccer programs with significant followings/crowds/attendance on a regular basis. 

The truth?  You have to go way further down this list until you even hit the top NESCAC soccer team.  You can run and hide behind excuses like academics and football teams.  But the truth?  The truth is that many other schools have high academic standards and football teams.  The truth?  The Wheaton (IL) football team finished the 2014 season ranked 8th in the nation and NESCAC doesn't even have a football team in the top 25.  And yet Wheaton soccer crowds are almost triple those of the top NESCAC team.

The truth?  Very few fans attend NESCAC soccer games compared to other NCAA teams in the nation.  And that is also very much the case when compared to many other D3 soccer programs.  And that's the truth!!!

Rank   Div   Institution   Conference   Avg Attendance
1   I   UC Santa Barbara   Big West   3,844
2   I   Louisville   Atlantic Coast   3,572
3   I   UConn   AAC   3,541
4   I   Maryland   Big Ten   2,688
5   I   South Carolina   Conference USA   2,602
6   I   Cal Poly   Big West   2,397
7   I   Indiana   Big Ten   2,379
8   I   New Mexico   Conference USA   2,276
9   I   Virginia   Atlantic Coast   2,182
10   I   Creighton   Big East   2,170
11   I   Clemson   Atlantic Coast   1,895
12   I   North Carolina   Atlantic Coast   1,833
13   I   Akron   Mid-American   1,825
14   I   Utah Valley   Western Athletic   1,750
15   III   Messiah   Commonwealth   1,730
16   I   Penn St.   Big Ten   1,706
17   I   UCLA   Pac-12   1,615
18   I   Syracuse   Atlantic Coast   1,424
19   I   Wake Forest   Atlantic Coast   1,402
20   I   SIUE   Missouri Valley   1,259
21   I   Tulsa   AAC   1,254
22   I   Notre Dame   Atlantic Coast   1,242
23   I   Washington   Pac-12   1,220
24   I   Charlotte   Conference USA   1,199
25   I   Kentucky   Conference USA   1,167
26   I   Saint Louis   Atlantic 10   1,160
27   I   Portland   West Coast   1,148
28   I   Michigan   Big Ten   1,134
29   I   Dayton   Atlantic 10   1,127
30   I   Providence   Big East   1,114
31   I   Stanford   Pac-12   1,100
32   I   Dartmouth   Ivy   1,095
33   I   UNCW   Colonial   1,064
34   I   UMBC   America East   1,059
35   I   St. John's (NY)   Big East   1,042
36   I   Michigan St.   Big Ten   1,039
37   I   Georgetown   Big East   1,031
38   I   San Diego   West Coast   1,028
39   I   Hartford   America East   1,018
40   I   UAB   Conference USA   920
41   III   Ohio Wesleyan   North Coast   888
42   III   Wheaton (IL)   CCIW   876
43   I   Old Dominion   Conference USA   860
44   I   Duke   Atlantic Coast   856
45   I   North Carolina St.   Atlantic Coast   847
46   I   High Point   Big South   844
47   I   Binghamton   America East   843
48   I   Furman   Southern   843
49   I   Virginia Tech   Atlantic Coast   839
50   I   Oakland   Horizon   830

[frank uible]

It is recommended that one avoid this thread if he should desire to have greater equanimity and less anxiety arising out of comparisons of his favorite educational institution with NESCAC.