NESCAC

[blooter442]

Based on the one Colby game I saw, I'd agree with most of what you said, Blooter.  But the game I saw was the Tufts game, and I certainly don't think Colby was overwhelmed defensively.  Tufts had more opportunities, especially in the last 10 minutes and OT, but not overwhelmingly so.  There were significant stretches where Colby was carrying the play.  And if Tufts isn't a top NESCAC side, I don't know who is.

I didn't see that game in person, but that sounds pretty consistent with what others have said about that match.

As far as their defensive qualities, what I mean is that Colby is the kind of team that -- I think -- could hold firm against a Tufts or an Amherst or a Middlebury for a good amount of regulation and perhaps even overtime, but would end up conceding a goal at some point or another. I remember a couple of years back they held Amherst scoreless for 70 minutes but eventually broke in the last 20 minutes. Of course, that was the year that the latter won the national title, so that's perhaps understandable, but you get where I'm going.

Speaking of Tufts, 2-0 up on Wesleyan and bossing SOG. Even watching them against Brandeis, they looked pretty comfortable defensively -- Lynch sent one just wide but, other than that, the closest came when Johnson dropped a high service into the box and reclaimed it. With no goals conceded so far, Coleman has done a fantastic job leading that back line.

[blooter442]

Weatherbie gets in on the act, 3-0. This was looking like a difficult test for Tufts but they have been rampant.

[PaulNewman]

Shapiro has a machine rolling there at Tufts....who, at the moment, are the top D3 soccer program in the country.  How good would an Elite 8 or national semi be with Tufts vs Messiah?  I'm serious, if Tufts played Calvin tomorrow, I'd bet on Tufts.  Maybe Chicago can beat them.  Tufts looks like a D1 team playing D3 schools.

[Mr.Right]

Nice article on future Eph:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/winnetka/sports/ct-wtk-new-trier-boys-soccer-will-felitto-tl-0919-20170921-story.html

Now THAT is a kid that Williams could use...A 6'2 physical striker..however my cynical side say's if he was that good why would D1's pass on a kid of his size?  Anyhow with him and Oberg coming next fall that will be something to look for.

As much as I would like to see Trinity/Conn at 4pm I cannot possibly pass up Dortmund/Real Madrid...Will catch the 2nd Half

Sometimes the D1s don't pass on the kid...the kid passes on the D1s.  That isnt everyone's aspiration.

I wish I could have watched the Conn game; I am curioius now, to see if the game I had watched was uncharacteristic.  Although...I am not sure that Trinity is going to tell me that much new information.  But,  I haven't seen Trinity play yet.  I guess I will have to settle.through the vicarious reading of commentary. 

No need to worry hun I am a fantastic surrogate. Maybe 20 years ago kids did not care as much but in my experience these kids today do not get missed by D1's and if they are that good the D1's will put enough pressure on the kid especially with scholarships that the kid will give in.

I'm in no position to question your experience, Mr Right, any more than I can question anyone else's experience. You heard what you heard, you saw what you saw, and I didn't.

However, my experience differs from yours on the matter of very talented athletes always "giving in" to D1 scholarship offers. This must also happen at many other D3 schools in various sports, but I can't speak to that from my own experience. I can, however, point out that D1 Dartmouth College (where you probably have some friends, given your very wide knowledge of New England athletic programs) gives no scholarships for athletics and very successfully recruits at the highest national level for men's and women's cross country and other distance running events. I understand that even D3 Messiah can boast of three men who qualified for the Olympic trials in track & field, one in the decathlon (former soccer goalie Chris Boyles), one in the marathon (Brian Sell, who transferred to D1 Saint Francis and later finished 22nd at Beijing), and one in the 800 (Patrick Roach, a transfer from D3 Gettysburg).

If we limit things just to soccer at Messiah, I understand that Kai Kasiguran (a national HS AA) actually turned down a scholarship from Akron, who were at that time ranked #1 or 2 in D1. I know Kai personally; he's now a very successful accountant in the Philly area. He thought about playing in D1, and even though he later played professionally and narrowly missed (owing to an ill-timed injury) playing for the Chicago Fire, he really wanted to play at D3 Messiah or Wheaton, b/c he bought the religious mission of both schools (and he still does) and wanted to play in such an environment. Given that Kai was obviously a highly sought D1 level recruit, he stands as a clear counter-example to your claim.

It would be fair to point out that Kai went to college about a dozen years ago, and you were comparing players today with those of 20 years ago. OK. But, Jack Thompson was also a high D1 level prospect, and he played on the 2011 and 2012 champions (as well as the 2013 team that lost 1-0 to Tufts on a small, muddy field). I'm told that several current players were approached by various D1 teams, but I have personal knowledge of just two specific situations: senior Colby Thomas visited at least one ACC program, and (as you know) Danny Brandt spent just a few days at a very high level ACC program before deciding that the overall atmosphere was not what he wanted.

You are probably right that most highly sought players do accept a D1 scholarship at some level (many such are not full scholarships, since men's soccer can award only 9.9 for the whole team), but some decline those offers in favor of D3 schools for various reasons. As with athletes in other so-called "minor sports," they choose the school rather than the scholarship.

We have discussed this over and over and as I have said in the past that Messiah is a different animal. Obviously, they have had serious D1 level players on that team. It goes back to the argument that Messiah allowed these kids the opportunity to play a high level of soccer and also a place where they could integrate their Christian faith and since there are extremely limited options in D1 at the time and probably still Dave Brandt understood how to sell his school to these types of kids...Williams had legit D1 Jamaicans(2 that played and contributed in MLS, not sure Messiah got that from theirs) that fell thru the cracks of even the Ivies. That would not happen today.

[Mr.Right]

I didn't catch the Wesleyan v Tufts match. Was it total domination or did Wesleyan have any chances? I still say he should have never played that game on the turf but I thought the turf might help Wesleyan play faster to feet and move the ball even though I knew Wesleyan would probably get manhandled physically which in itself can get you off your game. However, they have had so much recent success against Amherst the past couple years I thought they could somehow deal with that. Oh well off to Hamilton this weekend then a stretch of 6 games in 14 days with a Colby/Midd back to back at home, midweek at Trinity, v Williams, midweek at Wheaton and at Amherst. All games I would give them a chance to win as long as they put tonight behind them and do not let it ruin a solid start to 2017.

[cac.aholic1]

To contribute to the D1 v. D3 discussion... I think there are cases where someone that could play D1 opts for D3, but I agree w/ Mr. Right that they are likely rare. I think we can list a decent number of reasons/cases where that might happen, but while acknowledging these cases are rather rather for the most part. Hell, I'll even put a number on it: a rough estimation of what percentage of NESCAC or powerhouse D3 (wheaton, messiah, calvin, Brandeis, etc.) players fall into this

1. Religion (1%)
2. Legacy (1%)
3. Wants to go to the best computer science school possible, not good enough to play at Stanford so looks for MIT, CMU, Cal Tech (1.5%)
4. All the mid or low level at soccer but high level at academics schools have filled their spots with "better" players, and isn't willing to go to a worse school (say UMASS) in order to play D1 (3%, and I'd guess most of the good NESCAC players)
5. Wants to join the coast guard (0.01% haha)
6. Wants to play multiple sports, and I'd wager the most common second sport is lax followed by hockey (2%)
7. Parents are affiliated with D3 school and get cheap tuition (0.2%)
8. Simply cares more about choosing the right school than what division the soccer team is in (1.5%)
9. Would actually prefer D3 to D1 (1%)

Lots of little factors here, but together they add up to a decent number of players that you might say "are D1 caliber" players, but end up choosing D3 schools. My numbers themselves are obviously worthless, but I think you get the idea. Also, lets remember that all of us probably speculating and wildly biased by our own experiences.

[SoccerMom_5]

To contribute to the D1 v. D3 discussion... I think there are cases where someone that could play D1 opts for D3, but I agree w/ Mr. Right that they are likely rare. I think we can list a decent number of reasons/cases where that might happen, but while acknowledging these cases are rather rather for the most part. Hell, I'll even put a number on it: a rough estimation of what percentage of NESCAC or powerhouse D3 (wheaton, messiah, calvin, Brandeis, etc.) players fall into this

1. Religion (1%)
2. Legacy (1%)
3. Wants to go to the best computer science school possible, not good enough to play at Stanford so looks for MIT, CMU, Cal Tech (1.5%)
4. All the mid or low level at soccer but high level at academics schools have filled their spots with "better" players, and isn't willing to go to a worse school (say UMASS) in order to play D1 (3%, and I'd guess most of the good NESCAC players)
5. Wants to join the coast guard (0.01% haha)
6. Wants to play multiple sports, and I'd wager the most common second sport is lax followed by hockey (2%)
7. Parents are affiliated with D3 school and get cheap tuition (0.2%)
8. Simply cares more about choosing the right school than what division the soccer team is in (1.5%)
9. Would actually prefer D3 to D1 (1%)

Lots of little factors here, but together they add up to a decent number of players that you might say "are D1 caliber" players, but end up choosing D3 schools. My numbers themselves are obviously worthless, but I think you get the idea. Also, lets remember that all of us probably speculating and wildly biased by our own experiences.

One of my kids was recruited by multiple high-level D1s.  And another one was courted by multiple low-level D1s.  All of my kids have chosen based on school preference.  But... all of my kids, including the two with D1 offers, preferred D3 soccer.  They didn't want to be obligated to (one son actually said "owned"by) a soccer program.
Plus -- American and Marquette both said they didn't allow players to do study abroads. And there were going to be limitations on summer internships. 

I worked for a pretty highlevel club for a long time.  We sent multiple players to the national teams in that time...  and sent many players to D1s.  But encouraged players to look for their academic fit first, rather than just making soccer decisions.  We had a whole recruiting-prep program that u15+ Academy and pre-Academy team members were required to participate in. 

And this was a good academy level club with multiple players going on to wear USA jerseys ...  telling their players that college is more than soccer.

I think that there are definitely "D1 caliber" players who choose D3... more often than you think.  There certainly are great reasons to do so... 

[truenorth]

I agree with SoccerMom and Cac.aholic's observations.  It's simply inaccurate to state that--and I'm paraphrasing here--that all D1 caliber soccer players are ultimately lured into playing D1 by the siren song of scholarships and/or the level of competition.  One of my sons played for Brown (during a time they were perennially ranked in the top 20 and one year ended up #2 at the end of the regular season).  My other son played for Bowdoin.  Both received great educations, but my older son has some regret that he didn't have much opportunity to explore the broader Brown community beyond his soccer buddies during his four years there.  That's all to say that some high caliber players intentionally choose D3 because of quality academics and the more balanced lifestyle...

[Ejay]

I'll chime in with my experience, albeit 25 years ago.  I was an invited walk-on to a A-10 school (i.e. no money offered). After the first day, I realized that in order to be successful at this level, you needed to be 110% committed - eat, breathe, live the game. It was a job. Many players were getting paid (scholarship) to play.  It wasn't for me.  I left after day two, but enjoyed my freshman year at the school (and supporting the team as a fan).

Ultimately, I decided to transfer because I didn't want the big school experience and felt a small liberal arts school was more appropriate for me.  A friend was playing soccer in a competitive D3 program and suggested I consider transferring there.  I visited, really liked the school, got along great with the players and coach, and decided that was where I wanted to be.  I transferred in my sophomore year and played all 20 games as the first or second one off the bench. My Junior year I started, led the team in scoring and earned All-Conference.  In the spring I studied abroad in Australia.  My Senior year was equally successful and I graduated with a job starting the first week in June. Oh year, and I met my wife there too. I'm on record as saying it was absolutely the best decision I ever made to walk away from the D1 program.

[Mr.Right]

Ugh.....You both are giving me examples of looking back and wishing I had done something differently. That is the easy part. Remember I am talking about "special" players NOT the 20th guy on a D1 roster that would be in a D3 starting line-up and be productive. That is easier for the player and parent to go D3. SPECIAL players that come along every couple of years or in Messiah's case every year and at the start of this century for Williams every year. SPECIAL PLAYERS not solid players. There is a big difference and for a D3 program to get one of these SPECIAL players nowadays is VERY difficult. They just do not slip thru the cracks anymore. In Nescac maybe a Rashid before the ACL's but that is a stretch, maybe Bull as he could have possibly dominated in net for a D1. Maybe Santos if he were a couple inches taller. On and on we go

[Mr.Right]

Skidmore at Williams---This is an interesting non-league matchup. Skidmore has not lost a game but their out of conference schedule has been weak. They did beat Union and battle back to score late to tie Hobart with 10 men for 55 minutes. In the physical battle with Hobart over the weekend the recap states that the teams combined for 37 fouls and 7 yellow cards plus Santos' red. Skidmore picked up 23 of the 37 fouls which is insane. There was basically a foul once every two minutes. When I saw those two teams last year it was also a physical battle so obviously Hobart / Skidmore has turned into quite a rivalry. I am interested to see how Skidmore approaches this game especially without Santos. Will they sit deep and counter? Will they play straight up and take chances? Will they rely on Okoye to work his magic and get a goal then sit back? I have not seen them play this year. Williams will have to replace Scatt McDonald as he also got a red against Bates. Who do they move in the middle with Meullers? More importantly, who comes off the bench to play right back? If Skidmore attacks Williams' wingbacks they can be beaten just ask McMillan of Amherst who was burning Williams left back all day but did not have the composure to either play a nice final ball or finish himself. The past 3-4 years this game has been a battle with each team winning once and comeback draw last year for Skidmore. Williams coming off a back to back plus it will be another scorching day. 1-1

[PaulNewman]

Mostly agree with Mr.Right.  If you choose D3, even assuming there was a choice, you chose D3.  Never have understood the necessity of these qualifiers "went D3 but coulda played D1."  Very, very few superstar D1 talents choose D3.  The NESCAC types can choose Ivies or other stellar D1 academic choices like Duke, Michigan, UVA, UCLA, William&Mary, Bucknell, Colgate, etc, etc.  This is also very much a demographics issue.  You NEVER hear about a totally legit D1 basketball prospect "choosing" to go D3 because he can "study abroad."  And while is definitely less pressure and a different vibe for the most part, guess who D3 players for the most part hang out with socially?  Mainly the other soccer players and maybe some other athletes.  Of course there are exceptions, but focusing on exceptions distorts the overall picture.

[blooter442]

Shapiro has a machine rolling there at Tufts....who, at the moment, are the top D3 soccer program in the country.  How good would an Elite 8 or national semi be with Tufts vs Messiah?  I'm serious, if Tufts played Calvin tomorrow, I'd bet on Tufts.  Maybe Chicago can beat them.  Tufts looks like a D1 team playing D3 schools.

You hear that, BF/Nutmeg?

[truenorth]

Mostly agree with Mr.Right.  If you choose D3, even assuming there was a choice, you chose D3.  Never have understood the necessity of these qualifiers "went D3 but coulda played D1."  Very, very few superstar D1 talents choose D3.  The NESCAC types can choose Ivies or other stellar D1 academic choices like Duke, Michigan, UVA, UCLA, William&Mary, Bucknell, Colgate, etc, etc.  This is also very much a demographics issue.  You NEVER hear about a totally legit D1 basketball prospect "choosing" to go D3 because he can "study abroad."  And while is definitely less pressure and a different vibe for the most part, guess who D3 players for the most part hang out with socially?  Mainly the other soccer players and maybe some other athletes.  Of course there are exceptions, but focusing on exceptions distorts the overall picture.

Seems like we're all doing some parsing here.  I was referring to D1 vs. D3 college choices in general terms.  If some of you are more specifically talking about "special" or "uber talented" D1 prospects, then yes they are far more likely to play D1 vs. D3...or if we take this to logical extremes...skip college altogether and go straight into professional soccer through their academy club...

[blooter442]

I'll chime in with my experience, albeit 25 years ago.  I was an invited walk-on to a A-10 school (i.e. no money offered). After the first day, I realized that in order to be successful at this level, you needed to be 110% committed - eat, breathe, live the game. It was a job. Many players were getting paid (scholarship) to play.  It wasn't for me.  I left after day two, but enjoyed my freshman year at the school (and supporting the team as a fan).

Ultimately, I decided to transfer because I didn't want the big school experience and felt a small liberal arts school was more appropriate for me.  A friend was playing soccer in a competitive D3 program and suggested I consider transferring there.  I visited, really liked the school, got along great with the players and coach, and decided that was where I wanted to be.  I transferred in my sophomore year and played all 20 games as the first or second one off the bench. My Junior year I started, led the team in scoring and earned All-Conference.  In the spring I studied abroad in Australia.  My Senior year was equally successful and I graduated with a job starting the first week in June. Oh year, and I met my wife there too. I'm on record as saying it was absolutely the best decision I ever made to walk away from the D1 program.

That's a great story, thanks for sharing! My alma mater has a number of players who transferred from D1 programs in the last six or so years (I can remember at least five) and have come in and made a difference. From what I've understand, they've all been very happy with that decision.

Sometimes a player might choose to go D1 but for whatever reason D3 ends up working out better. Sometimes it's a question of "Do I stay in this D1 program, not play much, and get a decent education, or transfer to a D3, get to play a lot, and get an upgrade in terms of academics?" Not the case for all, of course, but I think that thought process often applies when transfers to high-level LACs/research universities are concerned.