NESCAC

[SierraFD3soccer]

The bottom line is that it's unrealistic to expect getting to the Final 4 every 4 years. November Madness is incredibly fluky. There are too many ways a tournament can turn on a dime and you run into a stout, gutsy team (Buff St) that puts you in a Golden Goal/PK situation that is pretty much just a coin toss.

Unless you are Amherst recently??

[PaulNewman]

I've learned our brains work differently. What's your take away from those results?

Mainly that there's no magic...and lots of great coaches..and sometimes things fall your way or you have a nice run for a variety of reasons, one of which may be coaching but also much more. Otherwise, just that he didn't go to Harvard and perform miracles. His best two years were the two years after he took over following an 0-14-1 campaign.

I guess my bigger point is that Dezotell has matched if not exceeded what Shapiro did in regular seasons, has gotten very high seeds for the tournament, and has had a couple of years of exiting the tournament sooner than most would expect. I remember the Elite 8 game that Conn won something like 5-4. Conn goes on to win natty. A play here or there can make the difference...

[SierraFD3soccer]

Followup on the Tufts/Dezotell comments in the immediate aftermath of Tufts getting knocked out.  I am no fan of Tufts, but....

Since leaving Tufts and taking the Harvard job, Shapiro has gone 8-5-3; 9-4-4; 5-5-7; and this year 4-7-4. Lost to UVM 5-0 and Stonehill 2-1. No NCAA appearances and no Ivy titles (as yet).

Yeah, D1 v. D3 recruiting right now is totally different. Even though Harvard obviously is great in academics, it may be limited as to attracting the talented int'l players which is running D1 soccer success. Yes, Harvard does have some int'l players, but the academics may be blocking that, plus the cost of attending may be playing a factor of Shapiro replicating his Tufts success.

One of my son's teammates played substantial minutes for Shapiro at Tufts during its best years. All of his other clubmates started their journey in D1 to include 3 of them for Nat'l Champs Maryland. However, today, that has all go away with D1 (and now some D3) teams now emphasis taking older and better int'l players.

I'm guessing that Shapiro will say that this is a totally different world with little or no parallels to his time at Tufts. He may still get it together though.

Another example is Dave Brandt who led Messiah to six NCAA titles and 52 post-season wins, the most in Division III history. He moved up to Navy which had all its own challenges. He had some success, but left after 7 years for the USL.  He is now at Bucknell after coaching Hope.  His team just won the Patriot League after two rough years. https://bucknellbison.com/sports/mens-soccer/roster/coaches/dave-brandt/1453 

All this saying that Shapiro can still have some success, but probably not the same.
   

[MunnyTim]

PN, I was at the Conn-Tufts 5-4 game in 2021 and I think Jumbos fans felt that a handball on a Conn defender (while retreating on a ball that bounced high off the notoriously bouncy Bello turf) could have been called as a clear goal scoring opportunity and a red card.  Conn scored two pretty miraculous strikes from outside the box and got a headed goal from a 5' 7" attacker.  Lots of things could have gone differently, that game could have easily swung the other way, Dezotel could have a final four (or natty) on his resume, and the narrative could be vastly different.

Looking at stats in the NESCAC this year, among Midd, Amherst and Tufts, the Jumbos were the best defensive outfit among the three, but also scored the least number of goals (I think it was 37, which was 12 fewer than Midd).  Occasionally, that kind of fine margin, score just enough to win, situation can come back to bite you in a close to the vest tournament setting. 

[PaulNewman]

People forget, as Mr.Right used to frequently say, when Shapiro arrived at Tufts the former coach left him a few cones and a bag of balls...and years of being a NESCAC doormat.  Tufts to that point had not been a recruiting magnet.

Also easy to forget that the 2014 title seemed to come out of nowhere. No one expected them to get to a F4...and no one predicted Tufts had a chance to beat Messiah. The Tufts win was stunning but not an obvious signal of what would occur over the next half-decade.  Tufts scored a wonder goal in the first minute, played really well, but also held on.  Messiah was better and Tufts really had to hold on in the end, but Tufts' talent was closer to Messiah's than anyone would have guessed and certainly played well enough to win on the day.

Also, is the Ivy landscape that different from NESCAC? At least inside their own conferences? Is Harvard really at such a disadvantage versus Yale, Penn, Cornell?

Don't get me wrong. Shapiro is a superb coach. He left. Dezotell is also very good.

[PaulNewman]

And all of these guys are Middlebury guys!  Not sure who has produced more higher end D3 coaches...Messiah, OWU, or Midd.

[D3Reporter]

In terms of NESCAC vs Ivy recruiting classes, I'd agree that there's more overlap than may be perceived (with the exception of the elevated international presence for the D1 league). When you're looking at the players that end up on a lot of the NESCAC rosters, particularly the top sides, the vast majority of these guys were very close to going to Ivies.

Bringing that back into the discussion about the Dezotell era for Tufts...In agreement with the last few posts that it doesn't make sense to call these last few years underperforming squads. I think if you look back and actually watch the teams play now versus during the Shapiro era, you might find that the quality of play is actually higher now. However, as I believe rdaniel posted, what these squads have all been missing is a dominant goal scorer. They've been missing a "gusty" guy with a little bit of selfishness who knows that he's going to be the one to put the ball in the back of the net; that he's going to be the guy (when the going gets tough in the tournament against a quality, gritty Buffalo St team with a park the bus and counter-style) to put the game away. With the evolution of top D3 recruiting now versus just a few years ago, it's only fair to wonder if maybe this missing piece they've been looking for is outside of the predominantly MLS Next/ECNL pool.

Not suggesting that they should abandon the recruiting style altogether as the teams have been really good. But perhaps, when looking for this dominant forward/goal-scorer, it's worth slightly shifting resources into some more "gutsy" talent pools?

[PaulNewman]

MunnyTim, I too remember that game which I watched live from my Lazyboy.  Iirc, in part because of the two strikes you noted, Conn had raced out to a 5-2 lead.  I can't recall if the possible PK play happened at 3-2 or 5-2, but at the time I thought that was a handball and should have been a PK.  This is interesting to me in terms of bias, because I also recall desperately hoping there would not be a call because I was heavily rooting for Conn.  I thought Tufts should have had the PK but I was not troubled in the least that one was not awarded. Indeed, I was relieved....like we dodged one there. Conn barely managed to hang on, because after building a pretty stunning 5-2 lead with about 20 minutes left Tufts came storming back to get to 5-4 and were very, very close to equalizing.  I think Burk talks about those last 20 minutes and what it was like for him as a coach in one of SC's first coach interviews after Conn won the national title.

[PaulNewman]

In terms of NESCAC vs Ivy recruiting classes, I'd agree that there's more overlap than may be perceived (with the exception of the elevated international presence for the D1 league). When you're looking at the players that end up on a lot of the NESCAC rosters, particularly the top sides, the vast majority of these guys were very close to going to Ivies.

Bringing that back into the discussion about the Dezotell era for Tufts...In agreement with the last few posts that it doesn't make sense to call these last few years underperforming squads. I think if you look back and actually watch the teams play now versus during the Shapiro era, you might find that the quality of play is actually higher now. However, as I believe rdaniel posted, what these squads have all been missing is a dominant goal scorer. They've been missing a "gusty" guy with a little bit of selfishness who knows that he's going to be the one to put the ball in the back of the net; that he's going to be the guy (when the going gets tough in the tournament against a quality, gritty Buffalo St team with a park the bus and counter-style) to put the game away. With the evolution of top D3 recruiting now versus just a few years ago, it's only fair to wonder if maybe this missing piece they've been looking for is outside of the predominantly MLS Next/ECNL pool.

Not suggesting that they should abandon the recruiting style altogether as the teams have been really good. But perhaps, when looking for this dominant forward/goal-scorer, it's worth slightly shifting resources into some more "gutsy" talent pools?

It's funny, even during the Shapiro years, I didn't think of Tufts as a striker haven.  They were strong in the back and always had a talented midfield with a mixture of high skill and physical dominance.  He did have Hoppenot and Santos in 2013 (I think lost to Vassar in 1st or 2nd round or maybe that was 2012) and again in 2014.  Of course their "backup" who I think scored against Wheaton in the national final, Majumder, stained my purple heart forever in the 2016 Elite 8 with a flukey tap-in in the 109th minute of double OT.  They've had a few others but none that pop off the page for me like a Lukovic or GG or the kid from Messiah that Falconer loves, or a Nathan Donovan.  In part I think that's because NESCAC is such a low scoring league because of the extremely tight defense and 0-0, 1-0, 1-1, 2-1 games.

[Kuiper]

In terms of NESCAC vs Ivy recruiting classes, I'd agree that there's more overlap than may be perceived (with the exception of the elevated international presence for the D1 league). When you're looking at the players that end up on a lot of the NESCAC rosters, particularly the top sides, the vast majority of these guys were very close to going to Ivies.

Bringing that back into the discussion about the Dezotell era for Tufts...In agreement with the last few posts that it doesn't make sense to call these last few years underperforming squads. I think if you look back and actually watch the teams play now versus during the Shapiro era, you might find that the quality of play is actually higher now. However, as I believe rdaniel posted, what these squads have all been missing is a dominant goal scorer. They've been missing a "gusty" guy with a little bit of selfishness who knows that he's going to be the one to put the ball in the back of the net; that he's going to be the guy (when the going gets tough in the tournament against a quality, gritty Buffalo St team with a park the bus and counter-style) to put the game away. With the evolution of top D3 recruiting now versus just a few years ago, it's only fair to wonder if maybe this missing piece they've been looking for is outside of the predominantly MLS Next/ECNL pool.

Not suggesting that they should abandon the recruiting style altogether as the teams have been really good. But perhaps, when looking for this dominant forward/goal-scorer, it's worth slightly shifting resources into some more "gutsy" talent pools?

Currently, the truly exceptional MLS Next or ECNL strikers are recruited by the MLS Academies and signed to MLS Next Pro contracts (if not to contracts with USL or European academies).  The really good ones are then the ones that DI is recruiting.  Frequently, DIII is getting guys who scored in MLS Next/ECNL, but didn't fit the striker mold (too short, not fast/athletic enough etc).  Middlebury has a freshman like that who played striker in MLS Next, but Middlebury moved him back to midfield (sometimes the 6) where he can use his technical skills more and can shoot from distance, rather than put up top where most defenders will be able to outjump or outrun him.   Amherst also got a great HS scorer from Socal, who often played farther back in ECNL because he might have lacked some of the elite quickness at his size to beat the better defenders (although he could against some and did play up top some of the time).  Better fit up top for Amherst based on the way they play and he already scored 5 goals this year

You have to be more creative to find goal scorers these days - it involves some level of projection and creativity.

[Freddyfud]

Currently, the truly exceptional MLS Next or ECNL strikers are recruited by the MLS Academies and signed to MLS Next Pro contracts (if not to contracts with USL or European academies).  The really good ones are then the ones that DI is recruiting.  Frequently, DIII is getting guys who scored in MLS Next/ECNL, but didn't fit the striker mold (too short, not fast/athletic enough etc).

Spot on from what I've seen.  Just to add this seems to be the current pathway for all players at least since MLS Next Pro formed a couple of years ago. But of course strikers are scarce. This pathway could change going forward due to the D1 roster limits being discussed in another thread or other unforeseen factors.

The boys club scene has been very dynamic in recent years.  From DA to (boys) ECNL to MLS Next and most recently MLS NEXT Pro and even USL2 expansion.  I suspect NESCAC and many other D3 coaches are already following along rather than going to the same well.  As Kuiper says the uncertainty requires a bit of projection.   

[Newenglander]

I know it was a topic brought up earlier but the ACC had Nine teams in the Division 1 championship in a field of 48.......

[eaglesoccerdad]

9 out of 15 for the ACC. All teams that made it were .500 or better in conference.

[PaulNewman]

As my cauldron stew of admiration and resentment rages on, I can't seem to resist adding to the NESCAC mystique....

Connecticut College was the SIXTH seed for the NESCAC tournament and is the FIFTH seed for the NCAA tournament.

Massive favorite to easily dispatch the Owls tomorrow.

Conn versus UMW should be a good one!

[Newenglander]

As my cauldron stew of admiration and resentment rages on, I can't seem to resist adding to the NESCAC mystique....

Connecticut College was the SIXTH seed for the NESCAC tournament and is the FIFTH seed for the NCAA tournament.

Massive favorite to easily dispatch the Owls tomorrow.

Conn versus UMW should be a good one!

it also appears you're brewing the mystical power of the jinx in that cauldron as well