WBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Just Bill]

So if Rossevelt's intention is to start in the NAIA and eventually transition to NCAA D-III, why did they declare for NAIA D-I in basketball?  It would seem to me NAIA D-II, which is completely non-scholarship like NCAA D-III, would have made more sense. Are they giving out or planning to give out scholarship money while in the NAIA?

NAIA II basketball gives scholarships, right?  Just less than NAIA I.

I thought NAIA II did not, only NAIA I. But I could be mistaken.

[billys]

So if Rossevelt's intention is to start in the NAIA and eventually transition to NCAA D-III, why did they declare for NAIA D-I in basketball?  It would seem to me NAIA D-II, which is completely non-scholarship like NCAA D-III, would have made more sense. Are they giving out or planning to give out scholarship money while in the NAIA?

NAIA II basketball gives scholarships, right?  Just less than NAIA I.

Is the distinction even because of scholarships between I and II?
I KNOW II gives out scholarships and know of schools that give out a large amount of scholarships who are Division II.
I always wondered what the distinction was between the two levels

[Titan Q]

I can't confirm this is updated and correct, but...

http://speeddevelopment.net/NCAA_College_Scholarship_Rules_and_Limits_-_CollegeAthletes.com.pdf


11 scholarships for NAIA I basketball and 6 for NAIA II...sounds right to me.

[Just Bill]

All right, I'll buy that.

So I wonder if Roosevelt is awarding any scholarships during their NAIA years?  It would seem like they wouldn't in order to ease the planned transition into D-III, but the fact that they've put together a quality team, according to Sager, in their first season hints that they may be awarding scholarships.

[billys]

Nice find ... thanks Titan.
I'm not sure how much those numbers truly matter; since I believe the majority of NAIA schools (if not all) are private.

Since equivalencies only include money provided by athletics it's relatively easy at those schools to put together a roster on 6 athletic scholarships and combine with academic, grant, and university financial aid to get a lot of really good kids.

It is an interesting question Bill to consider if they are awarding athletic scholarships now. What is the "grandfather" period for those kids accepting awards who are still there in the NCAA years? I think Centenary had a similar issue going from D1-D3 but I think those kids had the choice of keeping their scholarship and not playing or playing and giving back the scholly?

[Gregory Sager]

Sager,

So if Rossevelt's intention is to start in the NAIA and eventually transition to NCAA D-III, why did they declare for NAIA D-I in basketball?

This was part of the deal that Roosevelt's administration made with the Chicagoland Collegiate Athletic Conference. As you may or may not know, the CCAC, which is an all-NAIA league, is divided into two divisions in basketball: Division I and Division II. As the names indicate, the CCAC's divisional alignment is based upon the respective competition levels of each CCAC school. They do play crossovers, but there's no overall league championship game; the top CCAC D1 teams (Robert Morris, St. Xavier, etc.) move on in the postseason to the NAIA-1 national tournament, and the top CCAC D2 teams (which were Cardinal Stritch and Judson last season) do the same in the NAIA-2 tourney.

Roosevelt's intention is to be an NAIA-2 program. As Bob pointed out, NAIA-2 programs are allowed six basketball scholarships. My understanding is that Roosevelt has women's basketball players on scholarship, although I'm not 100% certain as to whether or not they're using the six-full-scholie maximum or not. (Lots of NAIA-2 programs don't use the full six; some don't use any at all and are, in effect, the financial equivalent of a D3 program.)

However, the deal that the CCAC made with Roosevelt was that the Lakers would be granted immediate membership in the league only on the condition that they compete in the D1 division for now. The NAIA rule is that a league must have six teams in it to get an automatic-qualifier bid to the national tournament (similar to D3's seven-team rule), and the CCAC's D1 division only had five teams in it after Illinois Tech dropped basketball two years ago. Last year another school, Holy Cross (one of Notre Dame's two sister schools in South Bend, the other being D3 member St. Mary's), joined the CCAC, and though Holy Cross's ultimate intent was to be in the league's D2 division, it, too, was required to play in the D1 division in order to maintain the six-team required minimum for the national AQ. The Saints paid the price for it on the hardwood; they went 0-10 in the D1 division, losing by nine to Indiana-South Bend across town and losing the other nine games by double digits (the Saints went 3-28 on the season).

Roosevelt was immediately granted acceptance into the CCAC and took Holy Cross's spot as the placeholder in the D1 division, with Holy Cross moving to the D2 division that is now eight teams strong. Like Holy Cross last year, it's an NAIA-2 program in terms of compliance (six basketball scholarships rather than eleven), but it's competing in a division with five teams that each have an eleven-scholarship ceiling. So, like Holy Cross last year, the Lakers will probably not fare very well in the D1 division. (They play very good basketball in the CCAC D1 division; it's quite comparable to the CCIW.) But they're stuck there until either NAIA-1 alters its minimum-member requirements for participating leagues, another school joins the CCAC, or Roosevelt exits the league.

It's the price that the Lakers paid for immediate membership in a league upon starting up the athletic program. Roosevelt's administration apparently felt that that was preferable to starting off life in the NAIA as an independent, with all the scheduling difficulties that that entails.

All right, I'll buy that.

So I wonder if Roosevelt is awarding any scholarships during their NAIA years?  It would seem like they wouldn't in order to ease the planned transition into D-III, but the fact that they've put together a quality team, according to Sager, in their first season hints that they may be awarding scholarships.

I have it on good authority that they are awarding basketball scholarships. How many, and whether they're full or not, I can't say.

Nice find ... thanks Titan.
I'm not sure how much those numbers truly matter; since I believe the majority of NAIA schools (if not all) are private.

Most are, some aren't. For example, the NAIA league with which those of us here in CCIW country are most familiar, the CCAC, is a mixed league. Its private members are Roosevelt, St. Xavier, Olivet Nazarene, Robert Morris, St. Francis (IL), Trinity Christian, Calumet St. Joseph, Trinity International, Judson, Cardinal Stritch, and Holy Cross; and its public members are Indiana-South Bend, Purdue-North Central, and Purdue-Calumet. Additionally, there's a local NAIA independent school that is a public institution: Indiana-Northwest.

It is an interesting question Bill to consider if they are awarding athletic scholarships now. What is the "grandfather" period for those kids accepting awards who are still there in the NCAA years? I think Centenary had a similar issue going from D1-D3 but I think those kids had the choice of keeping their scholarship and not playing or playing and giving back the scholly?

Here's the pertinent rule in the NCAA Division III Manual regarding provisional schools (schools that are in the four-year process of converting to a D3 school):

20.3.4.1 Athletically Related Financial Aid Exception. A provisional member shall not award new athletically related financial aid to incoming students (e.g., freshmen, transfers) beginning with the first year of provisional membership and thereafter. Following the completion of year two, a provisional member may no longer award athletically related financial aid to any student, unless the institution previously awarded athletically related financial aid to the student, and the student no longer participates in intercollegiate athletics. During the second year of provisional membership (and each following year), a provisional member must complete the financial aid reporting process (see Bylaw 15.4.1.1). (Revised: 5/4/06, 1/8/07 effective 8/1/07, 1/14/09)

It's still a mystery to me why: a) the NAIA accepted Roosevelt into membership; and b) the CCAC accepted Roosevelt into membership, when it's no secret that the school intends to apply for D3 membership (and, presumably, the NAthCon) as soon as it's feasible. I can sort of understand the CCAC's acceptance of Roosevelt, since, as I indicated, Illinois Tech left a hole in the D1 division that the league needs to fill. However, I'm not sure why the NAIA let in a school that's already indicated that it intends to bolt at some future date.

[billys]

Thank you Mr. Sager ... awesome post.
I'm mostly familiar with the Illinois, Wisconsin, and Iowa NAIA's so I was at a loss (and to lazy) in knowing if there were publics.

Interesting situation- From the NAIA's standpoint I think as an organization that is potentially on it's last breathe, they're probably figuring anyone who's interested in joining and writing a check for a few years is worth our time. Maybe they're hoping Roosevelt will like the lower costs and autonomy of NAIA and stick around.

They do play good ball in the top of the CCAC. Robert Morris beat Carthage last year and St. Xavier is also legit.

Thanks for the handbook citing. That is what I had heard at Centenary with their move eventually it was either play and no pay, or no play and pay. That's gotta be a tough situation for kids who went down there right when it started. In these cases here though maybe the basketball money won't be significant enough to force a lot of kids out. Or ... for now look for transfers and JUCO's to use your basketball money knowing they'll be done before you move to NCAA.

Good discussion.

[RogK]

Since the topic is CCAC/NAIA, I'll mention that the Olivet Nazarene women missed 63 3FG attempts last night (this would cause most coaches to pass out, if not away), but won by 21 over Cardinal Stritch U of Milwaukee. Study their box score to figure out how a team shoots .295 overall FG pct and still wins comfortably. They are unorthodox and completely rational.
To get back to the CCIW, I want to mention that in the Millikin opener, not only did Elise Wildman ring up 27 pts, 16 rebs and 4 steals, she did it in just 29:00 (foul trouble may have limited her minutes even though the game went OT). Nice work, tall person!

[Just Bill]

Since the topic is CCAC/NAIA, I'll mention that the Olivet Nazarene women missed 63 3FG attempts last night (this would cause most coaches to pass out, if not away), but won by 21 over Cardinal Stritch U of Milwaukee. Study their box score to figure out how a team shoots .295 overall FG pct and still wins comfortably. They are unorthodox and completely rational.

Are they playing the Grinnell "System"?

[Mr. Ypsi]

Uh oh - at the half, #3 IWU trails #12 DePauw, 36-24.

[Titan Q]

Live stats...

http://www.depauw.edu/ath/live/women/xlive.htm

DePauw outrebounding IWU by 8 and has taken 14 more FGA.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Final:  DePauw 77, IWU 65.

We were out-rebounded by 12, and caused only 13 turnovers.  Neither stat sounds like Titan basketball.  (No disrespect intended to DePauw; I'd assume they had something to do with those stats. )

[billys]

Since the topic is CCAC/NAIA, I'll mention that the Olivet Nazarene women missed 63 3FG attempts last night (this would cause most coaches to pass out, if not away), but won by 21 over Cardinal Stritch U of Milwaukee. Study their box score to figure out how a team shoots .295 overall FG pct and still wins comfortably. They are unorthodox and completely rational.

Are they playing the Grinnell "System"?

Yes they do

[bblover]

I caught the Elmhurst, Franklin game last night; Franklin hit 8 free throws in the OT to edge Elmhurst by 2. It was a competitive game from the start; neither team ever took control though Franklin seemed a little more organized on offense (as well as better free throwers). Perhaps, Elmhurst is still looking for an identity with Long gone. Clearly, both teams were in early season form; sloppy play was the rule. Undoubtedly, it had to be a difficult game for the officials to ref. They were fair, but they also seemed to be early season form, perhaps preseason. Whistling 63 fouls (5 players fouled out) and 53 turnovers, the game moved like molasses. With a whistle about every 20 seconds, the game took well over 2 hours. Officiating basketball is undoubtedly difficult; you can whistle an infraction on just about every play (see last night's game), but it seems to me that the objective is to let the game flow while maintaining reasonable control. My ears are still ringing. Anyone else catch the game?

[Hoosier Titan]

Stories about IWU's loss to DePauw yesterday:

http://www.iwusports.com/news/2010/11/19/WBB_1119105512.aspx?path=wbball

http://www.pantagraph.com/sports/college/basketball/women/article_019e0d32-f464-11df-881d-001cc4c03286.html

We were unable to go due to the early start time (there is such a thing a work!).  Sounds from Mia Smith's comments in the Pantagraph that some adjustment--attitude or otherwise--will be in order.