WBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[RogK]

lmitzel, one stat that's good early on for North Central is they're committing only 10 turnovers per game (9 10 10 11 so far). This must be a priority for the new coach.
It could be that they haven't faced a trapping/pressing team yet? Not sure.

[lmitzel]

lmitzel, one stat that's good early on for North Central is they're committing only 10 turnovers per game (9 10 10 11 so far). This must be a priority for the new coach.
It could be that they haven't faced a trapping/pressing team yet? Not sure.

Knox (the opponent in their opener) pressed off of inbounds plays, but I think that's about it (though I didn't really watch much of their games in Ohio this weekend). The fact that they've taken good care of the ball, especially with young point guards, thrills me. I'm just hoping they can start to close out games a little better. I'm frustrated by a poor shooting performance in this last one, but that's an aberration considering how hot they were the day before. These things tend to even out.

[RogK]

the new CCIW Player of the Week is Maddie Merritt -- congrats to her!

[GoPerry]

The case for going up is that I can't believe that ANY team has already played FIVE teams from the preseason top 25, and gone 3-2 against them (winning by 16, 18, and 20 points [while losing by 1 and 5]).

Nonetheless, I think you're probably right, but if they fall below about 16 I'm gonna be steamed!

One of the voters in the men's poll posts his ballot so you can vent; I don't think any of the women's voters do that.  A rare case of men being superior to women!

Totally agree on the schedule Ypsi.  In fact, Massey has only Luther IA as having played a tougher schedule than the Titans thus far (@ Whitewater, @ Point, vs Gustavus).  4-2 is really not a bad result at all.  Even 3-3 probably would've been fine albeit less room for error in conference play.  But given the conference depth these days (or lack thereof), it's not too risky to schedule aggressively for the non-con portion.

IWU #16.  Seems about right.  Wheaton ORV but getting fewer votes.  Surprised DePauw stayed in the top 25.  Emory and Henry pretty big jump.

[gordonmann]

If folks are interested, I can try to post the highlights of my ballot on here. I'm okay sharing that, I just don't want to presume it will interest people and I won't be able to give it the full breakdown Dave does.

* I'm one of the two people who voted St. Thomas first. I watched their game against George Fox (whom I have No. 6) and was really impressed by the way the Tommies rallied to win on the road. Spaulding and Renikoff are a really good one-two punch. And that win was the best of any team, in my opinion, through the first couple weeks of the season. George Fox looked really good, despite the loss.

* I liked what I saw from Illinois Wesleyan when I watched them against DePauw. Good length, good athleticism. It's a similar roster build and approach to George Fox. This is the type of team that can go deep in the tournament. And, at this point in the season, I'm more interested in whom you beat than you whom you lose to. IWU played a toss up game with Chicago (No. 4 on my ballot) and the Titans overwhelmed DePauw (No. 15 on my ballot) and beat Wash U (top 15 last week on my ballot) convincingly.  So I ended up bumping IWU up from No. 12 to No. 10.

* Wheaton received 21 votes and I account for a third of them. I have them No. 19 on my ballot, which admittedly feels too high. But I was high on them to enter the season because they (along with IWU) are expected to contend for the CCIW crown and the top team in the CCIW is usually a Top 20 team. I like their balance between front court and back court players. I don't like their propensity to under perform in the NCAA tournament and against high quality non-conference opponents. They got crushed by Thomas More in the first game, but that doesn't tell me something I didn't already know -- Thomas More is 2nd on my ballot and they are going to obliterate a lot of good teams.

Anyway, hopefully that's interesting. Feel free to tell me where you disagree or ask about other teams' position on my ballot if you care.

[GoPerry]

And, at this point in the season, I'm more interested in whom you beat than you whom you lose to.

Hmm.  I'll have to give that one some more thought Gordon.  Good wins seem to mean alot to the voters and I think they should.  I would also say that losses vs higher ranked or similarly ranked teams shouldn't hurt too badly either.  But I'm less sure why bad losses don't seem to affect voters as much?  Amherst's home loss to Eastern Connecticut was a bad one.  Shouldn't a ranked team like Depauw be able to beat RHIT - even after getting handled by 20 vs IWU? 

* Wheaton received 21 votes and I account for a third of them. I have them No. 19 on my ballot, which admittedly feels too high. But I was high on them to enter the season because they (along with IWU) are expected to contend for the CCIW crown and the top team in the CCIW is usually a Top 20 team. I like their balance between front court and back court players.

I have no problem with them not being ranked.  Win @ Loras is all they've done to be noticeable to voters so far.  2-0 this week @Chicago and @NPU will change that.

Wheaton . . . I don't like their propensity to under perform in the NCAA tournament and against high quality non-conference opponents.

Nailed that one . . .

Anyway, hopefully that's interesting. Feel free to tell me where you disagree or ask about other teams' position on my ballot if you care.

I'm wondering where you had Emory/Henry?  5-0 including a win vs Marymount (dropped from rankings).  Other than that . . .  #15 means some probably had them as high as #12 or so?  I don't know their team whatsoever but I thought that looked like a big jump.

In any case, thanks for voting on the poll, posting your comments, and putting it out there.

[iwu70]

GordonMann, thanks for your explanation.  I'm with you on almost all of it. 

I think IWU can go 20-5 this year, and likely win or share the CCIW crown.  We'll see  Still some issues with PG play, at times lack of rebounding, but they have the speed, shooting, defense and pace to play with almost anyone.  I'm sure run and jump pressure will improve in the next series of games   I'd be very happy if they enter January conference play with only 2-3 losses.  Still some tough games to go before the CCIW run gets started in earnest.  WC and CC likely the most important challengers. 

Ypsi, you got your wish on the Titans staying well-ranked even after losing twice.  I think they stay in the poll most of the year now. 

Congrats to Maddie Merritt -- a really great run of games and increased scoring for her.  Line her up with the others -- esp. Shanks and Sosa -- and the Titans can score the ball.  If a big guarding Merritt doesn't follow her out away from the basket, she's very capable of hitting 15-20 footers.  And we know her amazing FT shooting percentage.  She's really playing like a senior, like a leader of this team now.

Keep it rolling TITANS!

Off to the Far Side now . . . back to the land of ping pong, badminton, and Rugby Sevens!   I'll be watching the CCIW  . . . when I get up early enough.

IWU'70

[gordonmann]

I tend to allow more leeway for losses in basketball than football (I used to vote in that poll too). There are more games, more variables in terms of where games are played and when, etc.  If the Amherst of D3football lost to the Eastern Connecticut of D3football (so maybe Marietta beating Mount Union?), I would be a lot less forgiving.

As for Emory and Henry, I agree the Wasps are too high. I have them No. 20 on my ballot after not having them in the preseason. I view Emory and Henry as being very close to Randolph-Macon based on their results last year and the very minimal data points this year (results against Marymount). It looks odd to have one team 243 votes separated from the other, though there really isn't much to go on at this point so every data point has magnified importance.

[Mr. Ypsi]

If folks are interested, I can try to post the highlights of my ballot on here. I'm okay sharing that, I just don't want to presume it will interest people and I won't be able to give it the full breakdown Dave does.

* I'm one of the two people who voted St. Thomas first. I watched their game against George Fox (whom I have No. 6) and was really impressed by the way the Tommies rallied to win on the road. Spaulding and Renikoff are a really good one-two punch. And that win was the best of any team, in my opinion, through the first couple weeks of the season. George Fox looked really good, despite the loss.

* I liked what I saw from Illinois Wesleyan when I watched them against DePauw. Good length, good athleticism. It's a similar roster build and approach to George Fox. This is the type of team that can go deep in the tournament. And, at this point in the season, I'm more interested in whom you beat than you whom you lose to. IWU played a toss up game with Chicago (No. 4 on my ballot) and the Titans overwhelmed DePauw (No. 15 on my ballot) and beat Wash U (top 15 last week on my ballot) convincingly.  So I ended up bumping IWU up from No. 12 to No. 10.

* Wheaton received 21 votes and I account for a third of them. I have them No. 19 on my ballot, which admittedly feels too high. But I was high on them to enter the season because they (along with IWU) are expected to contend for the CCIW crown and the top team in the CCIW is usually a Top 20 team. I like their balance between front court and back court players. I don't like their propensity to under perform in the NCAA tournament and against high quality non-conference opponents. They got crushed by Thomas More in the first game, but that doesn't tell me something I didn't already know -- Thomas More is 2nd on my ballot and they are going to obliterate a lot of good teams.

Anyway, hopefully that's interesting. Feel free to tell me where you disagree or ask about other teams' position on my ballot if you care.

I at least would be very interested in seeing your ballot each week.  And, while most of the voters disagreed (and fulfilled my prediction that IWU would fall to around 16th), I'm glad to see that at least one voter agreed with me that a good case could be made for IWU actually rising in the poll.

[Enginerd]

And, at this point in the season, I'm more interested in whom you beat than you whom you lose to.

Hmm.  I'll have to give that one some more thought Gordon.  Good wins seem to mean alot to the voters and I think they should.  I would also say that losses vs higher ranked or similarly ranked teams shouldn't hurt too badly either.  But I'm less sure why bad losses don't seem to affect voters as much?  Amherst's home loss to Eastern Connecticut was a bad one.  Shouldn't a ranked team like Depauw be able to beat RHIT - even after getting handled by 20 vs IWU? 

Geez GoPerry - have you paid ANY attention to Midwest women's basketball outside the CCIW the past several years? RHIT entered the past two NCAA tournaments without their starting PG whom had been lost in the conf. championship game BOTH years. Two straight 24-4 campaigns, including a ROAD win at undefeated UAA Champion Chicago last season. A one-point loss to Illinois Wesleyan and a five-point loss on the road at DePauw were their only non-conference blemishes. RHIT has been absolutely decimated by injuries early on this season and might not have everyone back until after Christmas, if at all. The 2-3 record isn't very impressive, but their non-conference schedule will wind up putting them in the SOS top 6-8 before conference play starts. Check it out yourself. Two straight wins over Chicago, a win on a neutral court vs UT-Dallas, and they finished the 2017-18 season ranked #4 in the final regional rankings (ahead of Trine).  RHIT even spanked IWU by 30 a couple years ago-which remains the only CCIW non-conference game never reported or discussed on this board in the past 5 years or so, that I can tell...

I don't know...SHOULD DePauw just spank poor little old RHIT?

I would think a win over DePauw might be seen as a huge step for a team that has battled a lot of adversity, as opposed to a humiliating defeat for DePauw - and if you want to split hairs and point out that the game was played on RHIT's court, I would counter that DePauw managed to win at then-#9 Trine, but not "lowly" RHIT. I know it's hard to understand how a school that can only recruit engineering majors can compete with the rest of D-III (see MIT as well), but there is far more there than meets the eye, if you care to look. I don't know what kind of season RHIT will have, especially with all the injuries, but they deserve a bit more credit than that...

[gordonmann]

I had RHIT on my ballot for the preseason. I wasn't aware of all those injuries but it helps explain why they weren't competitive against Wash U.

Here's my ballot for this week.

1 St. Thomas (Minn.)
2 Thomas More
3 Bowdoin
4 Chicago
5 Hope   
6 George Fox   
7 Amherst   
8 Scranton   
9 Tufts
10 Ill. Wesleyan   
11 East Tex. Baptist
12 Wis.-Whitewater
13 Trine
14 Chris. Newport
15 DePauw
16 Rochester Inst.   
17 Messiah   
18 Saint Joseph's (Me.)   
19 Wheaton (Ill.)
20 Emory & Henry   
21 Austin   
22 Texas-Dallas   
23 Geneseo
24 DeSales
25 Baldwin Wallace   

[Gregory Sager]

RHIT even spanked IWU by 30 a couple years ago-which remains the only CCIW non-conference game never reported or discussed on this board in the past 5 years or so, that I can tell...

Heh!

I know it's hard to understand how a school that can only recruit engineering majors can compete with the rest of D-III (see MIT as well), but there is far more there than meets the eye, if you care to look. I don't know what kind of season RHIT will have, especially with all the injuries, but they deserve a bit more credit than that...

I've gotta respect that kind of passionate STEM-school comradeship.

Note to GoPerry: Don't take any digs at IIT's or MSOE's women's basketball teams, if you know what's good for you.

[GoPerry]

And, at this point in the season, I'm more interested in whom you beat than you whom you lose to.

Hmm.  I'll have to give that one some more thought Gordon.  Good wins seem to mean alot to the voters and I think they should.  I would also say that losses vs higher ranked or similarly ranked teams shouldn't hurt too badly either.  But I'm less sure why bad losses don't seem to affect voters as much?  Amherst's home loss to Eastern Connecticut was a bad one.  Shouldn't a ranked team like Depauw be able to beat RHIT - even after getting handled by 20 vs IWU? 

Geez GoPerry - have you paid ANY attention to Midwest women's basketball outside the CCIW the past several years? RHIT entered the past two NCAA tournaments without their starting PG whom had been lost in the conf. championship game BOTH years. Two straight 24-4 campaigns, including a ROAD win at undefeated UAA Champion Chicago last season. A one-point loss to Illinois Wesleyan and a five-point loss on the road at DePauw were their only non-conference blemishes. RHIT has been absolutely decimated by injuries early on this season and might not have everyone back until after Christmas, if at all. The 2-3 record isn't very impressive, but their non-conference schedule will wind up putting them in the SOS top 6-8 before conference play starts. Check it out yourself. Two straight wins over Chicago, a win on a neutral court vs UT-Dallas, and they finished the 2017-18 season ranked #4 in the final regional rankings (ahead of Trine).  RHIT even spanked IWU by 30 a couple years ago-which remains the only CCIW non-conference game never reported or discussed on this board in the past 5 years or so, that I can tell...

I don't know...SHOULD DePauw just spank poor little old RHIT?

I would think a win over DePauw might be seen as a huge step for a team that has battled a lot of adversity, as opposed to a humiliating defeat for DePauw - and if you want to split hairs and point out that the game was played on RHIT's court, I would counter that DePauw managed to win at then-#9 Trine, but not "lowly" RHIT. I know it's hard to understand how a school that can only recruit engineering majors can compete with the rest of D-III (see MIT as well), but there is far more there than meets the eye, if you care to look. I don't know what kind of season RHIT will have, especially with all the injuries, but they deserve a bit more credit than that...

Enginerd:

Wow!  Ok- I'll apologize if my comment insulted you and the team that I know you support so well.  However, I believe you are reading way too much into that single reference.  I am a little more familiar with RHIT and their strong defensive capabilities, over the last couple years from Wheaton having played them and being in the same NCAA pod etc.  But having said that, my comment had nothing to do with what any program has done last season or any past season and it certainly was NOT about trying to dis the Engineers in the least.  It was more about how a current team today, ranked in the top 25 of a subjective poll, imho should be expected to beat an unranked team that had just lost by 25 (to a team that was no longer ranked).  The fact that RHIT was playing with injuries(I didn't know) and had key players out makes my point even more.   It was a question pertaining to voters viewing current results on the floor more empirically and fact-based in their voting.  You could have substituted Depauw with any top 25 team name and RHIT with Wheaton or any unranked team and my question/point was precisely the same.

Note to GoPerry: Don't take any digs at IIT's or MSOE's women's basketball teams, if you know what's good for you.

Way ahead of you on that one now! 

[Enginerd]

And, at this point in the season, I'm more interested in whom you beat than you whom you lose to.

Hmm.  I'll have to give that one some more thought Gordon.  Good wins seem to mean alot to the voters and I think they should.  I would also say that losses vs higher ranked or similarly ranked teams shouldn't hurt too badly either.  But I'm less sure why bad losses don't seem to affect voters as much?  Amherst's home loss to Eastern Connecticut was a bad one.  Shouldn't a ranked team like Depauw be able to beat RHIT - even after getting handled by 20 vs IWU? 

Geez GoPerry - have you paid ANY attention to Midwest women's basketball outside the CCIW the past several years? RHIT entered the past two NCAA tournaments without their starting PG whom had been lost in the conf. championship game BOTH years. Two straight 24-4 campaigns, including a ROAD win at undefeated UAA Champion Chicago last season. A one-point loss to Illinois Wesleyan and a five-point loss on the road at DePauw were their only non-conference blemishes. RHIT has been absolutely decimated by injuries early on this season and might not have everyone back until after Christmas, if at all. The 2-3 record isn't very impressive, but their non-conference schedule will wind up putting them in the SOS top 6-8 before conference play starts. Check it out yourself. Two straight wins over Chicago, a win on a neutral court vs UT-Dallas, and they finished the 2017-18 season ranked #4 in the final regional rankings (ahead of Trine).  RHIT even spanked IWU by 30 a couple years ago-which remains the only CCIW non-conference game never reported or discussed on this board in the past 5 years or so, that I can tell...

I don't know...SHOULD DePauw just spank poor little old RHIT?

I would think a win over DePauw might be seen as a huge step for a team that has battled a lot of adversity, as opposed to a humiliating defeat for DePauw - and if you want to split hairs and point out that the game was played on RHIT's court, I would counter that DePauw managed to win at then-#9 Trine, but not "lowly" RHIT. I know it's hard to understand how a school that can only recruit engineering majors can compete with the rest of D-III (see MIT as well), but there is far more there than meets the eye, if you care to look. I don't know what kind of season RHIT will have, especially with all the injuries, but they deserve a bit more credit than that...

Enginerd:

Wow!  Ok- I'll apologize if my comment insulted you and the team that I know you support so well.  However, I believe you are reading way too much into that single reference.  I am a little more familiar with RHIT and their strong defensive capabilities, over the last couple years from Wheaton having played them and being in the same NCAA pod etc.  But having said that, my comment had nothing to do with what any program has done last season or any past season and it certainly was NOT about trying to dis the Engineers in the least.  It was more about how a current team today, ranked in the top 25 of a subjective poll, imho should be expected to beat an unranked team that had just lost by 25 (to a team that was no longer ranked).  The fact that RHIT was playing with injuries(I didn't know) and had key players out makes my point even more.   It was a question pertaining to voters viewing current results on the floor more empirically and fact-based in their voting.  You could have substituted Depauw with any top 25 team name and RHIT with Wheaton or any unranked team and my question/point was precisely the same.

Note to GoPerry: Don't take any digs at IIT's or MSOE's women's basketball teams, if you know what's good for you.

Way ahead of you on that one now! 

LoL - no need to apologize. The whole ranking thing has been a bit frustrating as a fan. For instance, despite a (at that time) sparkling SOS, and a 12-3 record, with the three losses to Hope (at Hope, where a post player threw-in a 3 with 20 seconds left), IWU, and DePauw, AND a win on the road at Chicago, RHIT didn't even get so much as a single vote in the D3Hoops poll until mid-January last season. Meanwhile, Baldwin-Wallace cracks the Top-25 THIS year with a 4-0 record against mediocre competition. It's as though voters were just waiting for ANY reason to vote for an OAC school...

Folks just aren't aware what an achievement it is to be COMPETITIVE, let alone actually win games against schools like IWU, DePauw, Chicago, UT-Dallas...etc - for STEM schools like MSOE, RHIT, and MIT. MIT might actually be the best of the STEM schools this season, and are more than capable of making some noise in March.

Rochester IT (the OTHER Rochester) has had a nice little run recently, and I'm sure it bugs people to no end to lose to the nerds at CalTech, whom finally have a coach and have bothered to actually recruit anyone...

[RogK]

Carroll topped Lakeland 72-57.
Among the Pios who did well :
Kayla Stefka 14 pts 11 reb
Katie Rossetti 10 pts, 12 reb, 2 blocks, 2 steals
Theresa Wichser 17 pts (1/1 2FG, 5/10 3FG)
Delaney Sjong 11 pts, 5 reb in 14:00