WBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Jester1390]

what a bone head play at end of 3rd quarter by uw player

[Gregory Sager]

Five turnovers in one uninterrupted 19-second sequence? Never seen that before. Ever.

[Roundball999]

round with all due respect the clips i were sent the calls couldn't go either way

Just watched the 4th qtr on large screen, let's just say we disagree.  Many plays that could go both ways throughout the game, as with any hoops game.  And the timer issue with 4 minutes left was completely inconsequential.  We see what we want to see.  I don't see how anyone can watch the last minutes of that game and conclude the refs determined the outcome.

No matter, Ryan and GoPerry have already made the most cogent arguments here....

[Gregory Sager]

Well, the Pioneers certainly proved me wrong, as they pulled off a major upset by taking down previously undefeated #5 UW-Whitewater, 71-62. Despite the hot-potato lunacy of the final two minutes, Carroll was a much more composed and effective team in the second half. Katie Evans (22 points) was en fuego from downtown, and the Pios generally did a great job of taking UWW apart in the halfcourt with back cuts and precision passing. Honestly, the Warhawks didn't resemble anything like an 11-0 team in that second half, and, while some of that is just a matter of jangled nerves and bad decision-making, a lot of it was simply due to being outplayed by a hungrier team.

Carroll (9-3, 1-3) goes into the meat of the CCIW sked on a real high.

[Jester1390]

round i can send you my email and then send you the video i was sent. im impartial on this i would be saying the same thing if it was the other way around. I have coached and watched basketball foy 25 plus years im sorry the videos i was sent there really is no argument. yes officials miss calls but this was all in the last 5  minutes. Its ok to agree to disagree. In the end it doesn't change anything i wouldn't even brought  it up except the most commentated people on here are fans of both schools so i thought it would be interesting to see their views.   Kudos to Hope for earning the home floor and i didnt say it was a conspiracy im just saying by what i see on video these refs were overwhelmed by the coach and the home fans.  The only thing i would rip Hope on is the the clock operator did wait 8 seconds to start the clock when they were down and unde r5 minutes. But hey mistakes happen i guess even in championship games

on a totally different a great game by Carroll  wanted to give it away a little at the end but their guard smooth as can be knocking down free throws.   Evans with a great game .. never seen UWW play but you see this elsewhere. Bigs used to dominating because no one their size. But when the other team like carroll has size you see their true ability to create around the basket.  Saw a lot of balls just thrown at the basket by UWW bigs

[RogK]

I was going to say that Katie Evans had ice water in her veins, but en fuego is also accurate. She definitely hit much-needed timely shots when the rest of the offense struggled.
And Kate Christian had to be exhausted at the end, but she persevered, preserving the lead with clutch free throws.
I don't call it a major upset; a surprising result, especially since the Pios were without four of their regulars. Carroll has a lot of ingredients and depth to be a strong team.
The victories that Millikin, Illinois Wesleyan and Wheaton achieved over Carroll in December now may warrant additional plaudits.

[Roundball999]

round i can send you my email and then send you the video i was sent. im impartial on this i would be saying the same thing if it was the other way around. I have coached and watched basketball foy 25 plus years im sorry the videos i was sent there really is no argument. yes officials miss calls but this was all in the last 5  minutes. Its ok to agree to disagree. In the end it doesn't change anything i wouldn't even brought  it up except the most commentated people on here are fans of both schools so i thought it would be interesting to see their views.   Kudos to Hope for earning the home floor and i didnt say it was a conspiracy im just saying by what i see on video these refs were overwhelmed by the coach and the home fans.  The only thing i would rip Hope on is the the clock operator did wait 8 seconds to start the clock when they were down and unde r5 minutes. But hey mistakes happen i guess even in championship games

on a totally different a great game by Carroll  wanted to give it away a little at the end but their guard smooth as can be knocking down free throws.   Evans with a great game .. never seen UWW play but you see this elsewhere. Bigs used to dominating because no one their size. But when the other team like carroll has size you see their true ability to create around the basket.  Saw a lot of balls just thrown at the basket by UWW bigs

Sorry, disagree.  The fact you say there is no argument on any of these calls proves to me you are not objective.  Don't need the cherry picked clips that someone with an agenda sent you; the entire game is available on YouTube for anyone inclined to a balanced view. 

[Jester1390]

its not cherry picked each film is from the broadcast and  shows each play  i know how to count so i know thats right.  I told you i would be more then happy to email you.  Trust me i wish i could figure out how to post on here because it simply would shut down this part on your behalf that im carrying water for IWU. I just ripped IWU for being ranked with 4 losses a couple of weeks ago. I dont think anyone on here would say Im a homer for IWU

[Gregory Sager]

I'm not upset I had another person send me the video. I was just amazed I wasn't aware of that.  Now if my kid had been on the team I would be nuts about it.   Not everyone is aware of history.

Wrong. We're all aware of it. It dominated this board's conversation for several pages, just before Covid shut down the playoffs. Scroll back to pages 573 through 575, and it's nothing but conversation about the reffing in that IWU @ Hope game. In fact, you yourself posted right in the middle of that brouhaha:

i will simply state what i learned from serving in the military ad what i have taught to my players and kids.  Losers make excuses. Winners own it no matter what the outcome.   Having my daughter play both Wesleyan and Chicago I am quite sure those players are owning it.  Have no clue if bad calls or not didn't see the game but a good coach would say you know what we need to play better and take it out of the refs hands,  A officer  once told me Airman were looking for solutions not excuses. Never forgot  those words and they have served me well.

Too bad that late last night you chose not to take your own words seriously.

I still feel young a lot of the time, but I have been watching and talking about d3hoops for more than two decades now.  Pretty much the most tried and true adage is that anyone complaining about the refs is not worth engaging.  There are a few less talented referees out there (although far fewer than there used to be) and lots of refs have off nights.  There's rarely an overall poor officiating performance (especially since they went to three refs and collectively overturning calls has become more common) that affects the outcome of a game - and even in those rare instances, there's nothing anyone can do about it.

It's a bit crude, but generally the second time you mention what's wrong with the refs is the first time I'm looking for someone else to talk to.  Bad officials are no different than a night when the shots aren't falling.  They're part of playing basketball.  You mention it and you move on.

Sound wisdom, Ryan. But as for the adage about reffing-gripers not being worth engaging, that's true only if: a) the griping isn't persistent; b) it isn't sucking all of the oxygen out of the room (i.e., hindering discussion of how great a game it was, and that IWU @ Hope game was definitely a great one); and c) it isn't indicative of an ulterior motive. Enginerd, who was the poster driving all that griping, definitely had an ulterior motive; he has a pronounced anti-Hope bias, complaining long and loud about how the Dutch are too talented for D3, how their large and packed arena drives officials into a state of Stockholm syndrome, etc., with all of his animus derived from a game four or five seasons ago that Rose-Hulman lost at Hope that he simply can't let go.

So, since I had a slow day at work that day, I spent a couple of hours not only watching that entire game on demand (I had only watched the last thirteen minutes of it live the night before), but rewinding and reviewing all of the points where Enginerd said that the officials were favoring the Dutch. And then I wrote a lengthy rebuttal. Enginerd still wasn't going to let it go, but then, thankfully, the country was swept up in the Covid pandemic and everybody's attention was diverted. I suppose that that kind of agenda-driven fanaticism is impervious to rebuttal, but at least I felt better about exposing the motives of the poster who was screaming the loudest.

Lol hmmm negative smites for posting video. All you need to know about today's society in a nutshell

First, you didn't post video.  Your files are not accessible here.  All readers can see is your editorial comments and home cooking claims (they were not MIAA refs).

Since you felt compelled to go there, I'll post the opposing view.  My apologies to the IWU fans here who have had nothing but class about that game.

I wouldn't go that far, since Chuck (Mr. Ypsi) and Mark (iwu70) did a lot of complaining afterwards about the refs, with another IWU fan (the brother of a former Titans player) chiming in at one point as well. Mark's made it plain again today that the game continues to "live in infamy" in his mind. But Chuck and Mark are partisan fans, and griping about perceived bad calls is what partisan fans do. I've done my fair share over the years of yelling about what I perceived as bad calls or no-calls that went against North Park. It's as much a part of college basketball as cheerleaders and concession-stand popcorn machines. Given that, I don't think any of us can hold the griping of the IWU fans that night in March 2020 and the next day against them. The Rose-Hulman fans who have chosen to weaponize that playoff game from two years ago as part of some anti-Hope vendetta, however, are another matter completely.

From my perspective, which may be as biased as yours, most of the clips you reference are NOT black and white, they are arguably in the "could go either way" category and are the types of calls we see refs make all the time.  I don't know if you actually looked at the whole game or especially the last four minutes, but there was a lot that happened on the floor during those minutes that had nothing to do with calls that were made or missed. Several bad IWU turnovers, more than a couple of wide open looks that Hope buried.  To imply the refs determined the outcome is to ignore the efforts of both teams, good and bad.  The IWU fans graciously acknowledged at the time that those last three minutes were not their team's best of the game, while also expressing their views about the refs.

That last sentence is true, on both counts. Enginerd feigned that as well, stating that the refs didn't win the game for Hope (while vehemently insisting that, simultaneously, the refs kept Hope from losing) because the Dutch had to make the shots necessary to come back and win. He even said that he was rooting for Hope to win in the soon-to-be-canceled subsequent rounds of the 2020 tourney, although, given his anti-Dutch animus, that was obviously gaslighting on his part.

again i would agree most of the time but  i dont care who won the game but the video is amazing. The circumstances are amazing. I had never heard of this game as it was before my time.

Baloney. I have already posted a quote of yours earlier in this post (from page 574 of this board, reply #8609, time-stamped March 8, 2020, 1:19 am) that occurred right in the middle of that post-game controversy.

I had another person send me the video links who also doesn't have a dog to hunt in the matter

Right. Another RHIT fan, I'll bet.

but said you wouldn't believe this game and  the damn videos dont lie.  You cant escape it. You cant say it didn't happen.  If this happened in a Connecticut game for the national championship the airwaves would have exploded.  I follow a lot of sports for god sakes I watch F1 racing and i never heard anything about this game at the time.  This was more then just ref being not very good. The clock keeper not starting the clock. It might be a matter of  refs were intimidated by coach and crowd the last 5 minutes.  There is just no other explanation to explain these videos.

I went over Enginerd's accusations frame by frame after that game, as I've already said. You can look it up yourself. It's on page 575 (reply #8619) of this board. My conclusion is that there were two bad calls that went Hope's way (a phantom blocking foul on an IWU player in the third quarter, and a traveling call on an IWU player with a little over two and a half minutes left in which the player clearly didn't travel) and a non-call that went IWU's way (Enginerd's complaint was that an elbow to the head of the Titans center was delivered by a Dutch player, which was true, but immediately prior to that inadvertent elbow the Titans center had blatantly held the Dutch elbower-in-question on an inbounds play and should've been whistled for a dead-ball foul).

But if you want to be like the mob and leave dead bodies buried no problem.

There are no dead bodies. There is only a lingering animosity here that fans of one non-CCIW program have for another non-CCIW program -- and I, for one, would like to get it off of this board and onto the MIAA and/or HCAC board where it belongs.

I posted it because you guys have been on here for so long you are emotionally attached to IWU

Ha! That's rich. Me, emotionally attached to IWU. Like that would ever happen in a thousand lifetimes.

"Dear Diary,

Today I was the target of the most bizarre accusation of my entire life ..." 

Check with Rog and lmitzel and GoPerry and ask them if they're emotionally attached to IWU, too.

it would be interesting to know how you felt at that time and now.

You know how we felt at that time, because, contrary to what you're insisting, you were a participant of this board -- and the board's post-game fallout after that March 2020 IWU @ Hope contest -- and even posted in the middle of it with that bit about what officers tell airmen about excuses.

How do we feel now? Well, that should be pretty obvious. Even the most zealous Illinois Wesleyan fan who regularly posts here has told you to, in his words, "let it go" and "move on."

you can discuss matters without being pissed off.   Maybe a hope fan has a different perspective and his take on the videos might change my mind. I don't think it will but i would be interested.

Or -- and here's a thought -- you could take this discussion over to a place where you RHIT fans and the Hope fans can hash it out together to your heart's content without involving CCIW fans.

My personal advice to you is to give up this crusade, because, just as was true of Enginerd back in March 2020, you're only making Rose-Hulman look bad. But, hey ... you do you. As I've said before, I don't run this board. All I can ask Rose-Hulman fans to do is to keep their anti-Hope diatribes off of this board, where they don't belong.

We see what we want to see.

And on that pithy truth I hopefully will close the book that shouldn't have been re-opened in the first place.

[Gregory Sager]

I don't call it a major upset; a surprising result, especially since the Pios were without four of their regulars.

I don't see how you can possibly say that, Rog. UWW was 11-0 and ranked fifth in the nation. Carroll was 8-3, but with a grand total of one win over a team that had a winning record, and CU has yet to appear on a single ballot in the d3hoops.com poll this season. The fact that Carroll was missing Rohner, Foster, Wichser, and Rangel made the uphill battle the Pioneers faced today even steeper ... and, thus, the absence of that quartet makes the ensuing upset even more epic.

Massey gave Carroll an 18% chance of winning this game -- and keep in mind that Ken's computer was completely unaware that the Pioneers were missing three starters and a key reserve. One can only imagine how low a win probability Massey would've given the Pioneers in light of that fact.

This game was practically the definition of a major upset.

Carroll has a lot of ingredients and depth to be a strong team.

Yeah, several ingredients of which were missing today ... which is partially my point.

The victories that Millikin, Illinois Wesleyan and Wheaton achieved over Carroll in December now may warrant additional plaudits.

Plaudits are all fine and dandy, but I'll bet that Lindsay Schultz would rather have mulligans for those three games.

Incidentally, the Carroll gamer indicates that this is the first time in program history that the Pioneers have defeated a Top Five team. Congrats to them on that significant achievement.

[lmitzel]

Check with Rog and lmitzel and GoPerry and ask them if they're emotionally attached to IWU, too.

Why is everything turning green?

So full disclosure: I haven't watched the game in question. But I'm inclined to believe Greg if he went frame by frame to write a rebuttal.

Officiating is a hard job, and I have a ton of respect for the crews I work with on a nightly basis. Do I say to myself at least once or twice a night, "Oh, I don't agree with that call"? Of course; I'm a fan and if you've watched or listened to a game at the hangar in the past decade or so, you know I have some homerific tendencies. I've probably even griped on here about calls once or twice. But I don't think there's some grand conspiracy, much less one in Hope's favor.

If we're gonna talk about bad calls, can we get this level of vitriol directed at the time NCC got called for an over and back when the ball was 10 feet past the half court line? (Note: please don't, I don't want to rile myself up over something that didn't impact the outcome of the game.)

[RogK]

I'll say this in regard to Illinois Wesleyan : Bloomington is about as close to Normal as you can get.

[Gregory Sager]

Check with Rog and lmitzel and GoPerry and ask them if they're emotionally attached to IWU, too.

Why is everything turning green?

AAAAGH! Quick! Get the women and children to the rockets and lift off before it's too late!

If we're gonna talk about bad calls, can we get this level of vitriol directed at the time NCC got called for an over and back when the ball was 10 feet past the half court line? (Note: please don't, I don't want to rile myself up over something that didn't impact the outcome of the game.)

My all-time favorite, and I hasten to point out that this did not take place at the crackerbox, was the time I saw a ref attempt to assign a bench technical to a team whose Gatorade cooler was, he felt, too close to the floor. After his two colleagues pulled him into a hasty huddle, and after about three or four minutes of emphatic back-and-forth, he emerged from the huddle and walked over to the scorer's table to downgrade his T-bone to a mere warning. Meanwhile, during the huddle the team's student manager had moved the cooler back into a dead space next to the side of the bleachers.

[Gregory Sager]

I'll say this in regard to Illinois Wesleyan : Bloomington is about as close to Normal as you can get.

Rog, you've earned the first rimshot of 2022. Happy New Year!

[GoPerry]

I'll say this in regard to Illinois Wesleyan : Bloomington is about as close to Normal as you can get.

I'm still trying to figure out what all that had to do with viewing Formula 1??  But us un-emotionally attached Wheaties are slower on the uptake . . .