WBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[OldSchoolHoopsFan]

I have been following the per minute stats for the CCIW players and if it will help clarify the discussion, here are the per minute stats for the 4 players that seem to be the statistical leaders.  I am not saying that stistics are the only, or even the best, judge of performance.  Additionally, comparing players that play different positions in different styles is challenging.  I would guess that the coaches are in the best postion to make this judgement, but it is fun to have an opinion. 
          Jacklin   Long   Solari   Wildman
             Car     Elm      IWU      Mil
M/G      28.05    33.05    25.15    34.15
PPM      0.533    0.694    0.525    0.504
FG%     52.7%   47.8%   56.4%   55.1%
FG/M     0.226   0.259    0.185     0.196
3.0%     16.7%   39.2%   0.0%    33.3%
3A/Min   0.011    0.189   0.000    0.004
FT%      54.3%  93.2%   74.3%   72.8%
FT/M     0.078    0.103    .155     0.110
R/M       0.269    0.213    0.338    0.278
F/M       0.098    0.089    0.089    0.061
A/M       0.050    0.057    0.173    0.070
TO/M     0.096    0.080    0.129    0.132
A/T       0.519     0.717   1.338    0.533
B/M       0.055     0.011   0.014    0.061
S/M       0.068     0.042   0.113    0.034

[Hoosier Titan]

OSHF,

Brilliant work!  I had come to the conclusion that a calculation like that would be the way to go, and you did it.  I also appreciate having other players in the discussion.

Many things can (and I'm sure will) be pointed out from this.  I'll just mention one:  Christina Solari's 1.338/1 assist-to-turnover ratio.  That would do most point guards proud and is one of the things that make her so valuable.

[RogK]

OSHF, the FG pcts you listed don't match what's on cciw.org for either conference-only or all (22) games.

[iwumichigander]

OSHF, the FG pcts you listed don't match what's on cciw.org for either conference-only or all (22) games.

FT% does not seem to match up either

[OldSchoolHoopsFan]

Apologies to all.  I should have clarified a couple of things.   First of all the last time I ran the stats was 2/5.  Secondly I wanted to do conference only but Carthage doesn't split them out so I was stuck with full season stats.  Agree conference stats would be more relevant to the discussion.  Sorry.

[OldSchoolHoopsFan]

I would be happy to provide numbers for anyone else that should be in the discussion and will run final stats the week of 2/22.

[RogK]

Thanks for the clarification, OSHF.
You raise another issue: the relevance of conference-only stats vs overall stats. Conference-only would seem to be the fairer comparison, since some teams' non-conference schedules are definitely tougher than others.
Even within the 14 conference games, some schedules are easier than others -- IWU is the only team that doesn't have to play against IWU! (sorry, I've used that line before)
Ultimately, though, I expect that the coaches nominate players for all-conference honors to reward and thank them for their efforts during the whole 25-game season.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Theoretically only conference performances are used for conference honors.

Whether or not that is really the case, I don't know.

[iwumichigander]

In regards to the previous posts mentioned about POY... I would have to agree with Old Hoosier Baller... while I do tip my hat to Christina Solari, you have to take into consideration the shots each are taking... Solari is a post player, Lyndsie is a small forward/big guard... their shot selections don't compare!  When one is choosing a player to be POY they have to look at every angle.  Although Solari does have better stats in three of the categories mentioned before: rebounds, assists, steals than Long- Look at the percentage of shots each are taking.  Lyndsie is constantly having to create, shoot higher percentage of shots, and is multi-dimensional on the court (can drive, shoot the J, and post up---- ALL WHILE BEING DOUBLE, SOMETIME TRIPLE TEAMED)... While one looks at rebounds- it is somewhat expected for Solari to grab more boards due to the size and postion she is playing.  However, being a fan of the CCIW and watching many different games against different apponents, I have never seen Solari shoot outside the 5-7 ft. mark?  When looking at other statistics throughout conference play, you see that Lyndsie is ranked higher in FT%, 3pt%, 3pt FG made, and is still very high up there there in FG% (while taking a more difficult percentage of shots).  In regards to the playing time--- I don't feel that has anything to do with a individual's performance, but rather gauges how well the team is performing!  BIG DIFFERENCE!  There is no doubt that they are both deserving, however LYndsie Long's season has been way more remarkable and historic on an individual level, which is what POY should reperesent...

Of course the playing time matters.   Your post is riddled with stats - if Solari wasn't on the bench for the second half of blowouts (which IWU has had far more of than Elmhurst), wouldn't her stats probably be rather higher?  And despite playing the equivalent of four games less, they ALREADY are higher in several categories.

There is a HUGE difference between limited playing time due to conditioning and/or defensive liabilities (see: Ryan Connolly, mens' Titans) and limited playing time because the team is just too danged good for most opponents and the coach is not sadistic!

FOR THIS CASE, you can't argue stats yet ignore minutes played.  If the award was MVP, I'd give it to Long - without her the Jays would probably not make the conference tourney (without Solari, the Titans would still be a very good team, though Carthage would have won the regular season).  But for POY, don't penalize Solari because her team is so good that she doesn't play that much!

And, like minutes played, you also need to consider the number of opportunities or attempts when doing a scoring only comparison. 
For example, for FGA Conference Only:
Long had 30.9% of team FGA compared to C Solari who had 11.6% of team FGA; or. more than twice as many opportunities. 
On an individual basis, Long had 194 FGA for .510 FG% compared to Solari with 80 FGA for .613 FG%.
So by extension, if Solari took 30.9% of IWU FGA with a .613 FG% with all other factors equal her conference PPG would be - 23.6 or 1.1 PPG better than Long's

[RogK]

iwumichigander, Christina plays superbly in the time she's on the floor, but we don't necessarily know if she could maintain the same per-minute productivity if she averaged 35 minutes a game like Long and Wildman do. She might, but we don't know.
Lyndsie certainly has to carry a much bigger scoring load than Christina does. If Christina was on Elmhurst and Long wasn't, Christina might be scoring 25 every game, (with fewer assists than she gets as a Titan) and we'd admire her for it. Similarly, we can admire Lyndsie for scoring 25 a game.
In regard to FG pct, the best way to give fair weight to 2s and 3s is to look at 'FG pts per FG att'. If Player A makes 6 of 10 FGs and all are 2 pointers, her 12 points are equal to Player B making 4 threes in 10 attempts. Their 'FG pts/FG att' would each be 1.2.
So far in conference play, Solari is at 1.23 (98 FG pts, 80 FG att), very close to Long's 1.20 (233/194). If you look at all games, Solari is at 1.13 and Long 1.12. If either of them has the ball, something good is likely to happen.

[Hoosier Titan]

iwumichigander, Christina plays superbly in the time she's on the floor, but we don't necessarily know if she could maintain the same per-minute productivity if she averaged 35 minutes a game like Long and Wildman do. She might, but we don't know.

In the five games I see from this season where Solari played more than 30 minutes--and she's played up to 37 minutes in a game--she averaged 17 points and 10 rebounds.  As Mr. Ypsi said, she's certainly able to play long minutes if needed.

Lyndsie certainly has to carry a much bigger scoring load than Christina does. If Christina was on Elmhurst and Long wasn't, Christina might be scoring 25 every game, (with fewer assists than she gets as a Titan) and we'd admire her for it. Similarly, we can admire Lyndsie for scoring 25 a game.
In regard to FG pct, the best way to give fair weight to 2s and 3s is to look at 'FG pts per FG att'. If Player A makes 6 of 10 FGs and all are 2 pointers, her 12 points are equal to Player B making 4 threes in 10 attempts. Their 'FG pts/FG att' would each be 1.2.
So far in conference play, Solari is at 1.23 (98 FG pts, 80 FG att), very close to Long's 1.20 (233/194). If you look at all games, Solari is at 1.13 and Long 1.12. If either of them has the ball, something good is likely to happen.

All true, and a good way to look at the 2 v 3 scoring.

[Mr. Ypsi]

RogK,

You've touched on a fundamental problem in trying to compare players on different teams: most simply, the Blue Jays NEED Lyndsie Long to score 25 ppg; the Titans DON'T need that kind of scoring from Christina Solari.  (If they did, IMO Solari could and would do it, but they don't.)  As Hoosier Titan noted, her A/TO ratio is better than many point guards!

My bottom line conclusion: IF the award were MVP, I'd choose Long.  Without her I doubt the Jays would even make the conference tourney; without Solari the Titans would still be first or second.  But the award is POY.  I lean towards Solari, but would not be offended if Long won it. 

(This all began when I challenged an overenthusiastic Long fan who felt the decision was a no-brainer.  IMO, anyone thinking the decision is clear-cut is the true 'no-brainer'! )

[iwumichigander]

RogK,

You've touched on a fundamental problem in trying to compare players on different teams: most simply, the Blue Jays NEED Lyndsie Long to score 25 ppg; the Titans DON'T need that kind of scoring from Christina Solari.  (If they did, IMO Solari could and would do it, but they don't.)  As Hoosier Titan noted, her A/TO ratio is better than many point guards!

My bottom line conclusion: IF the award were MVP, I'd choose Long.  Without her I doubt the Jays would even make the conference tourney; without Solari the Titans would still be first or second.  But the award is POY.  I lean towards Solari, but would not be offended if Long won it. 

(This all began when I challenged an overenthusiastic Long fan who felt the decision was a no-brainer.  IMO, anyone thinking the decision is clear-cut is the true 'no-brainer'! )

Actually the award is for Most Outstanding Player. I find no reference for POY or MVP awards on the CCIW site but I could have missed it.

[iwumichigander]

iwumichigander, Christina plays superbly in the time she's on the floor, but we don't necessarily know if she could maintain the same per-minute productivity if she averaged 35 minutes a game like Long and Wildman do. She might, but we don't know.
Lyndsie certainly has to carry a much bigger scoring load than Christina does. If Christina was on Elmhurst and Long wasn't, Christina might be scoring 25 every game, (with fewer assists than she gets as a Titan) and we'd admire her for it. Similarly, we can admire Lyndsie for scoring 25 a game.
In regard to FG pct, the best way to give fair weight to 2s and 3s is to look at 'FG pts per FG att'. If Player A makes 6 of 10 FGs and all are 2 pointers, her 12 points are equal to Player B making 4 threes in 10 attempts. Their 'FG pts/FG att' would each be 1.2.
So far in conference play, Solari is at 1.23 (98 FG pts, 80 FG att), very close to Long's 1.20 (233/194). If you look at all games, Solari is at 1.13 and Long 1.12. If either of them has the ball, something good is likely to happen.

Conversely, we don't know she would not either so were reduced to attempting some sort of even weighting.  I do like your approach and would note on that basis the results are 'dead even'.

[Mr. Ypsi]

RogK,

You've touched on a fundamental problem in trying to compare players on different teams: most simply, the Blue Jays NEED Lyndsie Long to score 25 ppg; the Titans DON'T need that kind of scoring from Christina Solari.  (If they did, IMO Solari could and would do it, but they don't.)  As Hoosier Titan noted, her A/TO ratio is better than many point guards!

My bottom line conclusion: IF the award were MVP, I'd choose Long.  Without her I doubt the Jays would even make the conference tourney; without Solari the Titans would still be first or second.  But the award is POY.  I lean towards Solari, but would not be offended if Long won it. 

(This all began when I challenged an overenthusiastic Long fan who felt the decision was a no-brainer.  IMO, anyone thinking the decision is clear-cut is the true 'no-brainer'! )

Actually the award is for Most Outstanding Player. I find no reference for POY or MVP awards on the CCIW site but I could have missed it.

Good catch!  But to me MOP/POY are essentially the same, but very different from MVP.  MOP is the best individual performance (not discounting, of course, how the player contributed to team success - but in a truly extreme case the player might even be from the 8th place team); with MVP the principle criterion (IMO) is how much worse would the team be if the player were not playing.

[I knew the men's award was MOP, but with all the references to POY I just assumed the women must use a different name; I probably should have known the conference would not be inconsistent in that particular way! ]