WBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Mr. Ypsi]

I guess I don't really see the difference between the two. How do you see MVP and MOP as different?

I had several posts addressing the difference on pp. 95-97.

To oversimplify, with MVP the key question is 'how much worse would the team be if the player suffered a season-ending injury just before conference play?'  To me, Long would clearly be the MVP, as the Titans would still have been 1st or 2nd even without Solari; the Jays IMO would have been 5th or 6th.  MOP has a different question: 'Which player had the most impressive season - in all facets, not just the quantifiable stats?'  (In terms of stats, don't forget that Elmhurst needs Long to put up 25; IWU doesn't need that from Solari, and she often sat for long periods due to blow-outs.)  For MOP, team performance still matters (how 'outstanding' could the player be if the team went 1-13?), but is less important than for MVP.

Ultimately, the award is also a bit subjective and speculative, since different teams need different things from players.  IMO if the Titans needed Solari to give the stats of Long, she could do that (and perhaps even more!); but, of course, we will never know, since they don't.   My personal conclusion: if it was MVP - Long; since it is MOP - ??

[Moser]

I guess I don't really see the difference between the two. How do you see MVP and MOP as different?

IMO if the Titans needed Solari to give the stats of Long, she could do that (and perhaps even more!); but, of course, we will never know, since they don't.   My personal conclusion: if it was MVP - Long; since it is MOP - ??

So then all we have to go off of are the numbers that are there. Solari no doubt is a 1st team all-conference player, and in IWU's few close games she has put up good numbers:

Wash U. (58-53 W) 16 points, 13 rebounds in 33 minutes
UWSP (84-80 W) 17 points, 11 rebounds in 32 minutes
Mo. Bap. (75-62 W) 23 points, 13 rebounds in 26 minutes
Chicago (64-57 W) 13 points, 6 rebounds in 28 minutes
La Verne (54-40 W) 8 points, 10 rebounds in 28 minutes
Redlands (79-71 W) 27 points, 9 rebounds in 31 minutes
@ Elmhurst (74-64 W) 16 points, 8 rebounds in 32 minutes
@ Carthage (67-72 L) 8 points, 12 rebounds in 36 minutes
Elmhurst (73-60 W) 17 points, 9 rebounds in 27 minutes

That averages out to 16.1 points and 10 rebounds in 30.3 minutes per game. Those are fantastic numbers, and stack up pretty well against Diana Jacklin's 14.9 ppg/7.5 rpg and Elise Wildman's 17.7 ppg/9.4 ppg. I think that if Solari played 30 minutes a night she could maintain that 16/10 average, which is pretty darn good but then you also have to throw Jacklin and especially Wildman into the MOP debate.

Long has averaged 24.6 ppg/7.3/33.6 mpg over the whole season and 26.1 ppg/7.4 rpg/35.3 mpg in CCIW play. She also has six 30+ games to her credit, which is just crazy.

Again, I'm not trying to take anything away from Christina Solari. She's a fantastic player on a fantastic team and she's a legitimate all-American. But I think that Lyndsie Long has put together an unbelievable season and deserves the MOP recognition.

[Mr. Ypsi]

My main point on Solari is not her reduced minutes (though that is a partial factor), it is IWU's reduced need for Long-type stats.  Even in the 'close' games, SHE isn't needed for those sorts of stats because of the cast around her.  I realize it is an unanswerable question; I just think she could out-Long Long if that is what the Titans needed.

My issue is not Long over Solari.  It is with those claiming that Long is OBVIOUSLY over Solari.

Whichever way the coaches decide is fine with me.  But I think we've reached an impasse with the posters' input!

[Moser]

Whichever way the coaches decide is fine with me.  But I think we've reached an impasse with the posters' input!

I trust that the coaches will meticulously read and analyze all of our posts on the subject 

[JMM11]

hello... This is my first post on the cciw message board but I have been following along for quite some time now and I feel like I need to add my opinion on the MOP debate.

First, no one is trying to take anything away for Solari.  I have read every post and that is never mentioned.  She is a great player and deserves credit and she gets that credit because every coach and player in the CCIW knows that she is important to stop to beat IWU. 

Second, it is an OBVIOUS choice that Lyndsie Long should be CCIW MOP.  She is indeed the most outstanding player in the conference.  I have seen all 8 teams play this season so my opinion is not based on lack of information on the conferences players.  When I think of the most OUTSTANDING player in the conference Lyndsie is the first to come to my mind.  And no one is close behind her.  Solari is great but Lyndsie is better and she had proved that game after game after game.  Lyndsie can do many things that Solari cannot do.  She plays an all around fantastic game.  From inside posting up to outside shooting.  For example this past Saturday I went to the EC game against Wheaton and Wheaton had their player all over Lyndsie the entire game.  The Wheaton defensemen did not even know where the ball was becaus she was glued to Lyndsie.  But LL can still find ways to score reguardless (she put up 37 points and 12 rebounds too!!!!)  No one has been able to shut her down all year and that is because she is the MOP!

Third,  you cannot punish Lyndsie because she doesn't play for IWU.  EC is not as good of a team as IWU but that doesn't mean the MOP has to come from that school.  Just  because IWU is first in the conference and is nationally ranked does not mean that the MOP has to come from that school.  IWU has several great players and are a great team, but no one person on their team is as good as Lyndsie.

Fourth, I wish all teams good luck in the conference tourney.  It looks to be some great games coming up this weekend. 

[Mr. Ypsi]

Third,  you cannot punish Lyndsie because she doesn't play for IWU.  EC is not as good of a team as IWU but that doesn't mean the MOP has to come from that school.  Just  because IWU is first in the conference and is nationally ranked does not mean that the MOP has to come from that school.  IWU has several great players and are a great team, but no one person on their team is as good as Lyndsie.  

First, welcome to the board!

No one is punishing Long for not playing for IWU.  My sense is that Solari is being punished for playing for IWU!

Elmhurst needs Long to put up her numbers.  IWU does NOT need Solari to put up Long's numbers.  The issue boils down to 'would Solari put up (at least) Long's numbers if needed?'  My answer is 'yes', but I'll leave it to the coaches.

[And you just HAD to go with 'OBVIOUS' choice! ]

[Mr. Ypsi]

Whichever way the coaches decide is fine with me.  But I think we've reached an impasse with the posters' input!

I trust that the coaches will meticulously read and analyze all of our posts on the subject 

You might be surprised at how many CCIW coaches read this board!

'...meticulously ... analyze' might be a different issue!

[Hoosier Titan]

When teams gameplan for Illinois Wesleyan their primary focus is on beating the Titan's system, their run and jump press and high-low motion offense. Of course there is discussion of the Titans individual players and their strengths, but it is not as though a coach says "we have to stop {insert Titan player} to win." Every CCIW coach knows that if you can't navigate the Titans pressure consistently without turning the ball over, you simply cannot win. Carthage beat IWU because they only turned the ball over 19 teams (compared to 30+, which is what most other teams did). When Carthage lost to IWU, they had 30 turnovers. When you give IWU that many extra possessions, they are too talented and balanced offensively not to turn those possessions into baskets.

I don't disagree with many of the facts in this post, but on their interpretation.  The run and jump is certainly a huge factor (and all five players on the court play it, including the posts).  But a high-low offense only works with skilled low post players who can handle the ball and know when to pass it out. Solari's point-guard-like ball handling, along with her court sense, is crucial here.  While I haven't discussed game planning with any CCIW coaches, my impression is that, this year at least, they are saying "We have to stop Solari to win."

No IWU fan here has ever hinted that Solari somehow deserves the award because she is from the best team, nor, to my knowledge has any IWU fan said anything but good things about Lyndsie Long.  Like Mr. Ypsi, I won't object at all if she wins the award.  But I don't think that high scoring alone makes someone an "OBVIOUS" choice.   I just don't think that's the best argument, and it appears to disrespect other candidates.

I'm glad the voting on this is coming up.  My sense is that, as others have said, we've reached an impasse. 

[bflong]

Mr Ypsi... When you say that you don't believe that high scoring alone makes someone an 'OBVIOUS' choice... look at the statistics again, it's not only scoring that LL does well... and regarding Solari and ball handling skills, I have watched an awful lot of IWU games, and I don't remember her ever bringing the ball upm showing her 'point-guard-like ball handling skills...

[OldSchoolHoopsFan]

I hesitated to throw fuel on this fire because, obviously, none is needed.  However, I promised these stats so here we go.  Here are the per minute stats for the names mentioned in the MOP debate. 
           Solari            Long          Jacklin      Wildman
Min           624         841              694              867
MPG            25         33.6             27.8             34.7
FG/M       0.184         0.270           0.229          0.198
FGA/M     0.332          0.551          0.416          0.364
FG%        0.556          0.490          0.550          0.544
2PtB/M     0.184          0.189          0.228          0.197
2PtA/M     0.332          0.470          0.415          0.363
2Pt%        0.556          0.403          0.549          0.543
3/M          0.000          0.081          0.001          0.001
3A/M        0.000          0.195          0.010          0.003
3%              0            0.415           0.143          0.333
FT/M         0.160          0.111          0.076          0.112
FTA/M       0.213          0.124          0.138          0.158
FT%          0.752          0.894          0.552          0.708
PPM          0.529          0.731          0.536          0.510
OR/M         0.136          0.059          0.084          0.076
DR/M         0.205          0.157          0.187          0.195
TR/M         0.341          0.216          0.271          0.271
F/M           0.091          0.082          0.099          0.062
A/M           0.178          0.061          0.050          0.069
TO/M          0.138          0.086          0.088          0.131
A/T            1.291          0.708          0.574          0.526
B/M            0.014          0.010          0.058          0.062
St/M           0.115          0.037          0.063          0.030
TA/M          1.054          0.814          0.780          0.748

TA = Total Average (Points Scored - (.5 x Missed FG)  + OR + (.75 x DR) - (.5 x F) +(2 x A) - TO + (1.5 x B) + St.

[Moser]

First, no one is trying to take anything away for Solari.  I have read every post and that is never mentioned.  She is a great player and deserves credit and she gets that credit because every coach and player in the CCIW knows that she is important to stop to beat IWU. 

I think it has been mentioned:

Again, I'm not trying to take anything away from Christina Solari. She's a fantastic player on a fantastic team and she's a legitimate all-American. But I think that Lyndsie Long has put together an unbelievable season and deserves the MOP recognition.

I hope it never came across that I am trying to take away from what Christina Solari has accomplished. That's not the goal and I thought I made it clear.

But I don't think that high scoring alone makes someone an "OBVIOUS" choice.   I just don't think that's the best argument, and it appears to disrespect other candidates.

To suggest that only her scoring is what makes her a candidate, quite frankly, appears disrespectful to Lyndsie Long.

It's NOT high scoring alone that makes Long a candidate. She averages 7.4 rebounds per game (5th in CCIW), shoots 52 percent mostly on jumpers (8th in CCIW--everyone ahead of her on the list is a post player except for Heather Gilmore), she's among the lead leaders in assists (13th with 2.21 per game), second in free throw percentage (88%), second in 3-point percentage (43%), first in 3-pointers made (43--11 more than closest), 12th in offensive rebounds, third in defensive rebounds.

Her credentials exceed her scoring, as do Solari's.

[OldSchoolHoopsFan]

I must say I was a bit surprised at the results.  I tried using other statistical combination than the TA shown here and the results are the same.  If you are just comparing per minute statistics CS has much better numbers than the others. It appears that CS has such a large margin is Assists (.12/m), Steals (.08/m) and Rebounds (.1/m) that it overcomes LL margin in PPM (.2/m). 

[RogK]

A look around the league from Saturday's action :
Augustana attained a 3-way tie with North Central and North Park at 2-12 by upending NC 66-59. Kristen Fox led Augie with 23 pts, 8 rebs. Brittany James had 6 steals for NC and Jackie Errico scored 25 pts.
Carthage 67-58 over Millikin. Rosie Dorn scored 17, missing 1 shot, and had 4 assists. Diana Jacklin had 11 pts, 11 rebs, 3 assists, 3 steals and 4 blocks. Elise Wildman countered with 18 pts, 7 rebs and 3 blocks. Beth Wellbaum had 11 assists.
In that IWU win, Melissa Gardner led all with 16, while Olivia Lett had 14, 6 rebs and 4 assists. Amy Burton scored 10 in 10:00. Christina S was very productive in her 19:00: 5 steals, 2 blocks, 7 assists, 10 pts. North Park's Juliann Plimpton topped everyone with 13 rebounds.
And yes, Lyndsie Long exited her home gym in style, having poured in 37, to go along with 12 rebs, 3 assists. That's a rather impressive good-bye to R A Faganel Hall. Teammate Megan Ney had 15 (6/9, 3/4) and 7 rebs. Brooke Olson led Wheaton with 13 pts in 20:00, but fouled out. There were 59 fouls in that game, 32 by Wheaton.
By the way, I was again disloyal to our conference and went to the Olivet Nazarene women's 122-88 win at Robert Morris Chicago. ONU made 21 of 54 threes and generally wore out RMC.

[RogK]

Here's my all-conference list. I took into consideration consistency, team success (if the whole is excellent, the parts are, too), quantifiable contributions such as scoring, rebounding etc and less-measurable contributions like ballhandling and defense.
1st :
Lyndsie Long
Christina Solari
Diana Jacklin
Elise Wildman
Hope Schulte
2nd :
Heather Gilmore
Stacey Arlis
Nikki Preston
Cecily Aldridge
Megan Ney
3rd :
Rosie Dorn
Katie Klemke
Lindsey Brenneman
Kamauria Acree
Christine Karl
I'd put Gilmore on 1st team, if there was room.
Honorable mention for two athletic players that I would want on my team and who can do a lot of everything well : Karen Solari and Dani Ripkey.

[Old Hoosier Baller]

Initially, I want to commend all posters for your in-depth analysis of MOP candidates, All-Conference selections, etc.  You are all students of the game, and I have really enjoyed reading your points of view. 

In my opinion, Lyndsie Long wins the MOP hands-down.  No disrespect to Christina Solari, Diana Jacklin, or Elise Wildman, but Lyndsie is in a class all of her own this season.  I must commend Moser on his analysis of this debate along with his analysis of what must happen to effectively compete against IWU in general.  I had the pleasure of watching Larry Bird compete while I was in college, and Lyndsie's performance this season has brought back many memories of the sheer dominance that I witnessed at Indiana State from 1977-1979.  Whatever the defense throws at her, she simply finds a way to solve it.   Again, all posters are to be commended for your insight and debate.

Lastly, with respect to the All-Conference selections, can any of you clarify what coaches look to?  I am assuming that the teams that finish higher in the standings typically secure more selections?  Do they look more at the entire season or more at the player's performance within the CCIW?  I would appreciate any insight that any of you may have into the process.

Good luck to all participants this weekend.