WBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Gregory Sager]

Oh, I don't think that NPU ought to be discouraged, Rog. This was a wakeup call for the Vikings and a good diagnostic tool for Amanda Reese so that she can tweak what the offense is doing during practices. Then NPU gets one more tuneup at home against Mount St. Joseph a week from Saturday before the CCIW slate begins.

[Captain_Joe08]

Mr Ypsi, I completely agree with you about the bogus re-naming of Concordia University River Forest to Concordia University Chicago. River Forest is a pleasant community, so why not be proud to be associated with it? Plus, the first thing high school students learn about the school is that is has a deceptive name.
My 119-112 NP score was more imagination than prediction. In fact, they had a feeble 29 through the first 33:00 of that game.
In the Elmhurst contest, Fiona McMahon tallied 15 and 13, while freshman Claire Monroe scored 16. I'm guessing that Tess Godhardt is not near full strength because she played only 18:00 and scored 0, both very unlike what she usually does.

When did the name change occur if I may ask? At least the name change did wonders for the football team at CUC  .

[Gregory Sager]

I think that it changed from CURF to CUC in 2006.

[RogK]

North Central had another 10:00 a.m. game in Vegas and topped Goucher (D3 from Maryland) 104-90.
Goucher was ahead 22-13, but NC went on a 40-16 run to complete the half. In the 2nd half, Goucher came within 5 (64-59) and was within 9 fairly late (91-82), but the Cardinals pulled away.
The stats indicate contributions from throughout the roster. Larynn Shumaker was again strong in the low post, missing only 1 shot while scoring 22 pts (5/6, 12/12 FT). Oh, that was in 14:00. Paula Elum added 12 pts and 4 steals. Sophie Newson tallied 10 pts, 7 rebs, 3 steals.
Their nonconference schedule is done (7-4). Next we get to see how the various CCIW opponents will approach the NC "system." Do you run with them or try to slow 'em down?

[Mr. Ypsi]

North Central had another 10:00 a.m. game in Vegas and topped Goucher (D3 from Maryland) 104-90.
Goucher was ahead 22-13, but NC went on a 40-16 run to complete the half. In the 2nd half, Goucher came within 5 (64-59) and was within 9 fairly late (91-82), but the Cardinals pulled away.
The stats indicate contributions from throughout the roster. Larynn Shumaker was again strong in the low post, missing only 1 shot while scoring 22 pts (5/6, 12/12 FT). Oh, that was in 14:00. Paula Elum added 12 pts and 4 steals. Sophie Newson tallied 10 pts, 7 rebs, 3 steals.
Their nonconference schedule is done (7-4). Next we get to see how the various CCIW opponents will approach the NC "system." Do you run with them or try to slow 'em down?

Not sure yet about this year's edition of the Titans, but the last few years they would absolutely salivate over any team wanting to run with THEM!

The IWU men only played against 'The System' once - March 1, 2001.  They won 132-91, setting IWU and d3 tournament records that (I believe) still stand.

The System is capable of humiliating bad teams (as we saw in that obscene Grinnell/Faith Bible Baptist game with the phoney individual scoring record), and will occasionally upset better teams, but really good teams make The System totally backfire.  Unless NCC is ALSO vastly improved, I'll predict that The System will lead to some 40+ point losses to the top conference teams.

The element of unfamiliarity might get them into the conference tourney (much like the triple option lets Air Force win a few football games their 'beef' would suggest they shouldn't win), but The System seems to have definite upper limits.

[Pat Coleman]

Ypsi -- it's a bit oversimplified to compare men's System with women's System. Key to beating the men's System is to throw the ball over the top of the press and get easy layups that way -- a play that is much more successful in men's basketball than it is in women's. You can't simply apply 132-91 to everything.

[Backseat Driver]

My two cents on the recent discussions of IWU: during the Titans' recent run of dominance in the CCIW, they've always had 8-10 players contributing significant minutes (i.e. 10+ per game). And they were able to go 10 deep without seeing a significant drop in talent. As a matter of fact, IWU's second units on those teams often matched up just fine even against the starters from the other CCIW contenders.

This year, only 6 Titans are averaging 10+ minutes per game. Now, I'm not privy to injury details or anything, but it appears that the '12-'13 Titans are not as deep as in year's past. I think their starting 5 is still pretty solid, but a significant reason for their recent dominance of the league is that they were more talented off the bench than their opponents. So, while it is certainly true that not having a clear "go-to" player like Olivia Lett or Christina Solari is a big change for IWU, I think the depth question is perhaps more significant.

[iwu70]

Backseat, I think you are correct about IWU's depth and also lack of as many strong post area players as in the past.  (Look at "minutes played" in the CCIW all game stats).  Also, without the depth, the "run and jump" is more difficult to maintain.  Plus, to be successful with the run and jump you have to have that "go for the juggler" type of defensive player who knows when to go for, pick off the second errant outlet pass, following the trap, to anticipate the key steals off that press.  So far, IWU's D has less frequently exhibited that type of anticipation, not that key player in the middle of the press.  Time will tell . . . perhaps it's Baltes, or McMahon, but it hasn't happened as consistently this year as in the past . . . and the Titans have also surely run into a number of teams with superb PGs, able to break the press.  I still expect them to be one of the best teams in the CCIW, contending for the league title come mid-February. 

IWU70

[Mr. Ypsi]

Ypsi -- it's a bit oversimplified to compare men's System with women's System. Key to beating the men's System is to throw the ball over the top of the press and get easy layups that way -- a play that is much more successful in men's basketball than it is in women's. You can't simply apply 132-91 to everything.

You're probably right, and I'll have to take your word for it.  I've so far not seen women playing the System (unless you count the modified system Olivet Nazarene uses).  (I believe the Trine women used the System [don't know if they still do], but I haven't had occasion to see them.)

[iwu70]

Merry Christmas to all the D3, CCIW and IWU chatsters!  All best for the New Year!

IWU70

[AndOne]

Without going into the advantages/disadvantages of the "system," NCC has already equaled the number of wins they achieved last season. Credit Coach Roof with taking the initiative to make a radical change, and to bring in some players who could handle it. Also, credit her with bringing in an assistant coach in Doug Porter, whose former team, NAIA member Olivet Nazarene was the NAIA national scoring leader in 7 of the last 8 seasons, and who is an authority in the knowledge and teaching of NCC's new style of play.

[RogK]

I think (my guess) one reason Coach Roof opted to go to the "system" is that she saw that a good chunk of her roster would fit the style and that it was a way to fully use depth. She may like the idea of participation by everyone, too.
She hasn't shown any inclination to do things for the purpose of individual stats like Grinnell does. Doug Porter didn't do that at Olivet Naz either. So, you can run a version of the "system" without immitating everything Grinnell does. Also, North Central probably could have run up 130 in a game or two already this season, but that does not appear to be a priority of Roof's either, not in a mismatch anyway.
I don't know if any of this year's freshmen were recruited specifically for the new style of play. Next year's arrivals will be, of course.
A book that Porter co-authored (Coaching the System) describes the roles of various player positions. To briefly summarize : 1 is point guard, 2 and 3 are three-shooters, 4 is a lowpost scorer and offensive rebounder. The 5 is something completely foreign to most basketball styles : she is a tall player who shoots threes (almost exclusively) and is the safety defensively, frequently trying to stop 2-on-1s when the opponent gets through the press. Olivet Naz found a few 6-footers that fit that description, but that specific type of player is not easy to locate, I'm sure.
Was I leading to some point? I forgot!

[Gregory Sager]

I think (my guess) one reason Coach Roof opted to go to the "system" is that she saw that a good chunk of her roster would fit the style and that it was a way to fully use depth. She may like the idea of participation by everyone, too.

The Arseneault System also lends itself to augmenting a coach's job security, inasmuch as it requires a large roster in order to be implemented. An awful lot of college coaches at this level are under pressure from their respective administrations to reach annual recruitment quotas, and the large rosters required by the System are an admission office's dream.

She hasn't shown any inclination to do things for the purpose of individual stats like Grinnell does. Doug Porter didn't do that at Olivet Naz either. So, you can run a version of the "system" without immitating everything Grinnell does. Also, North Central probably could have run up 130 in a game or two already this season, but that does not appear to be a priority of Roof's either, not in a mismatch anyway.

David Arsenealt does those types of stunts in order to draw publicity to the Grinnell program. That serves two purposes: 1) It gets the word out about his program via the media; and 2) it's a useful means for him to ingratiate himself with the Grinnell administration, because publicity for the men's basketball team means publicity for the school. The stunts really don't have anything to do with basketball at all -- in fact, the purists among us consider them to be antithetical to the sport, and certainly antithetical to good sportsmanship -- but they do serve ancillary purposes.

[RogK]

Greg, your second point (Arseneault's "stunts") has 0 to do with how Olivet Nazarene WBB has implemented the System, nor is there any sign that North Central will do that sort of thing. In fact, when Grinnell has altered its style for the purpose of setting individual player records (assists, points), it was a deviation from the basic idea of the system : no player gets more than 20 or 22 minutes. In those "stunt" games, the record-setters played something like 36:00. Certainly Grinnell can be criticized, but such criticism is not germane to any team in women's basketball.
Your first point (roster size) may be a motivation at North Central, but maybe not. A lot of teams have had rosters of 14 or 15 players, but didn't use 6 or 7 in many games. Millikin is an example recently. At least all 17 or 18 on North Central get to play.

[Gregory Sager]

Greg, your second point (Arseneault's "stunts") has 0 to do with how Olivet Nazarene WBB has implemented the System, nor is there any sign that North Central will do that sort of thing. In fact, when Grinnell has altered its style for the purpose of setting individual player records (assists, points), it was a deviation from the basic idea of the system : no player gets more than 20 or 22 minutes. In those "stunt" games, the record-setters played something like 36:00. Certainly Grinnell can be criticized, but such criticism is not germane to any team in women's basketball.

Precisely my point, Rog. Arseneault does those stunts for reasons that really don't have anything to do with basketball per se. That brings us into the realm of issues such as publicity, ethics, and coach-administration relations, and it's quite understandable that other coaches would therefore choose not to follow Arseneault down that road. The System is controversial enough as a basketball strategy; why take on in addition all of the completely unnecessary baggage that its founder has added to it?

Your first point (roster size) may be a motivation at North Central, but maybe not. A lot of teams have had rosters of 14 or 15 players, but didn't use 6 or 7 in many games. Millikin is an example recently. At least all 17 or 18 on North Central get to play.

I don't know if Michelle Roof operates under a quota requirement or not, but it wouldn't surprise me if she did. Lots of D3 schools, CCIW schools included, have recruiting quotas for their various coaching staffs. But the System is ideal in terms of being administration-friendly, because it not ony demands a large roster -- even if the players themselves aren't what would be considered top-drawer talents by CCIW women's basketball standards -- it also aids in retention by giving just about everyone on the roster varsity playing time from Day One.