WBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Gregory Sager]

You're not watching enough D3 women's basketball, then. The skill level across the board is dramatically better than it used to be, and because it's a game that is still played below the rim it's less susceptible to domination by freakish athleticism of the Sydney Moss kind. (And, for the umpteenth time, Mark, as good as Olivia Lett was, she was no Sydney Moss.) The women's game is, on average, more of a team game than the men's version of the sport at the D3 level. For example, in the CCIW men's scoring is about three points per game higher per team than it is on the women's side, but CCIW women's teams average over a full assist per game more than do their male counterparts. The reason for the greater disparity between good teams and bad teams on the women's side is, as I said, a matter of how much a school is willing and/or able to invest in building a program, because the players are out there to be found and developed.

[lmitzel]

You're not watching enough D3 women's basketball, then. The skill level across the board is dramatically better than it used to be, and because it's a game that is still played below the rim it's less susceptible to domination by freakish athleticism of the Sydney Moss kind. (And, for the umpteenth time, Mark, as good as Olivia Lett was, she was no Sydney Moss.) The women's game is, on average, more of a team game than the men's version of the sport at the D3 level. For example, in the CCIW men's scoring is about three points per game higher per team than it is on the women's side, but CCIW women's teams average over a full assist per game more than do their male counterparts. The reason for the greater disparity between good teams and bad teams on the women's side is, as I said, a matter of how much a school is willing and/or able to invest in building a program, because the players are out there to be found and developed.

I went and crunched the numbers for this season, just because I was curious. The men in the CCIW are averaging 79.05 points per game, and the women are averaging 77.33. A little less of a disparity than what you had, but I'm also not sure what data you have (and I'm sure it was accurate at whatever time you checked). Of course, this also has to take into account Augie's new up-tempo offense and The System for North Central. That skews the scoring averages a little closer to what the men put up.

I think you're spot on about the difference in investment in women's basketball at different schools, though.

[lmitzel]

North Central is back in action tonight as they take part in the Roosevelt Classic in Chicago. They take on host Roosevelt University (NAIA) at 7:30, and will play either Concordia or Governors State tomorrow.

Brief scouting report says NCC has to contain Paige Gallimore (19.6 PPG on 48/31/77 shooting splits and 7.1 RPG). This is a team that forces more turnovers than it commits, but not by much. Should be a fun one.

[iwumichigander]

You're not watching enough D3 women's basketball, then. The skill level across the board is dramatically better than it used to be, and because it's a game that is still played below the rim it's less susceptible to domination by freakish athleticism of the Sydney Moss kind. (And, for the umpteenth time, Mark, as good as Olivia Lett was, she was no Sydney Moss.) The women's game is, on average, more of a team game than the men's version of the sport at the D3 level. For example, in the CCIW men's scoring is about three points per game higher per team than it is on the women's side, but CCIW women's teams average over a full assist per game more than do their male counterparts. The reason for the greater disparity between good teams and bad teams on the women's side is, as I said, a matter of how much a school is willing and/or able to invest in building a program, because the players are out there to be found and developed.

Agree with all Greg wrote and add - at the Div 1 and 2 levels, those schools are getting the really taller, athletic and stronger players through athletic scholarships.  The talent level at the high school level has yet to attain the same level as the men but we are seeing bigger, stronger more athletic women coming out of the high school level. And, that is a compliment to the women.

And, at the Div III level, just look at your school offerings of additional women's sports.  There are student athletes playing sports recently added that chose to play a sport other than basketball that likely would make a good addition to your basketball team.  Simply more choices which is why our schools added these other sports to attract students that are athletes.

[Roundball999]

The men's and women's games are surely different but I also agree that the differentiated focus and investment by certain schools are more the reason for the disparity between the top teams and the rest.  I am a Hope fan and see first hand the beautiful facility, the great coach who has been at Hope for 20 years and accumulated one of the best winning percentages in all of college basketball, and the student and community support that has led to Hope leading the nation in home attendance for many years in a row.  Hope gets mostly local/regional players with most coming from MI and a few from IL and IN, and they compete for recruiting directly with Calvin, so it's not as if they go far and wide to cherry pick the best players.  They always play at least 10 deep (this year only one player gets 25 mpg with the rest 22 mpg or less) so I really believe its about giving the players and coaches the resources to develop, retaining an excellent coach, and creating an environment and yes an expectation of success.  Fan support follows, which further builds the environment.  Kids want to play there.  It has a Christian affiliation and coach has very strong emphasis on academics (most years WBB team is in top 20 for NCAA GPA) so I believe it also attracts student athletes that are quite serious and focused.

I'm sure the formula is different among the top schools, but I would bet that one consistent theme is that WBB is resourced and considered to be one important part of the college campus and educational experience.

[RogK]

North Central's starting time may be a bit earlier than 7:30 if the 5pm game lasts a normal duration.
The opener features Governor's State (3-9 so far, 2nd year of having a varsity WBB program) and Concordia Ann Arbor (10-3). Judging by stats, one of CAA's best players is 5'7" Kari Borowiak : .571 2FG, .449 3FG, .767 FT, 4.4 rebs, 2.9 stls. Also some interesting numbers for 5'4" Mia Long : 2.9 stls and 7.8 FTA per game. CAA opponents have averaged 23 TOs. CAA's tallest player (6'2") is Short. Bet she never heard a joke like that! Sorry.
The gym for Roosevelt is the Goodman Center, SE corner of Congress and Wabash, 2nd floor, roughly the same level as the adjacent elevated tracks of the CTA's Green and Orange Lines. Trains can be heard and seen from portions of the gym. Too bad they didn't place the gym in a high floor of Roosevelt's new 469 ft tall Wabash Tower.
Tomorrow afternoon's matchups are evidently determined by today's results, so it's possible that Roosevelt may play Gov State even though they are in the same NAIA conference. If North Central faces Conc Ann Arbor, it could be a tough battle, in addition to both teams being Cardinals in black and red.

[Gregory Sager]

You're not watching enough D3 women's basketball, then. The skill level across the board is dramatically better than it used to be, and because it's a game that is still played below the rim it's less susceptible to domination by freakish athleticism of the Sydney Moss kind. (And, for the umpteenth time, Mark, as good as Olivia Lett was, she was no Sydney Moss.) The women's game is, on average, more of a team game than the men's version of the sport at the D3 level. For example, in the CCIW men's scoring is about three points per game higher per team than it is on the women's side, but CCIW women's teams average over a full assist per game more than do their male counterparts. The reason for the greater disparity between good teams and bad teams on the women's side is, as I said, a matter of how much a school is willing and/or able to invest in building a program, because the players are out there to be found and developed.

I went and crunched the numbers for this season, just because I was curious. The men in the CCIW are averaging 79.05 points per game, and the women are averaging 77.33. A little less of a disparity than what you had, but I'm also not sure what data you have (and I'm sure it was accurate at whatever time you checked). Of course, this also has to take into account Augie's new up-tempo offense and The System for North Central. That skews the scoring averages a little closer to what the men put up.

I think you're spot on about the difference in investment in women's basketball at different schools, though.

I didn't actually add them up and divide them like you did; I just used the median scores, which I knew would be within a half-point or so of the actual mean. And you're right that both Augustana and NCC play styles that artificially inflate the women's totals, making the averages of the two genders appear closer than they actually would be using more standard offenses.

[RogK]

Here's a list of the increases and decreases in WBB scoring offense in relation to their final avgs from '15-'16 :
AUG +24.2,  CRL -8.9,  CTG +12.8,  ELM +4.3,  IWU +8.7,  MIL +17.8, NCC -3.6,  NPU +9.2, WHE +5.9.
I expect North Central's current 91.1 avg to rise to last year's 94.7 or better, so maybe only Carroll could end up on the minus side.

[iwu70]

Millikin gave DePauw a good game, losing 66-62. 

IWU is clearly a better offensive team this year.  Let's hope they continue to improve, even going through their very tough schedule.  McGraw and Ehresman really playing well, at an All-CCIW level.  The others contributing will really make the difference for the Titans in the final two months of the season. 

Of course, it makes sense that the top programs where there's been good investments, coaching and facilities in women's basketball are able to attract increasingly talented women players.  Much of this, of course, mirrors earlier investments and strong programs and facilities on the men's side.  Schools had to do much of this for the women due to Title IX and the wish to compete in recruiting students generrally.  My point was not there, but at the lower end and the lower end of the bench at the less strong programs.  That's where, IMHO, there just isn't the talent in the D3 women's game.  And, I've watched lots of women's basketball over the years. 

Looking forward to IWU vs. Thomas More.  Hope we have an upset.

Happy New Year to all, from the Far Side.

IWU'70

[lmitzel]

A week off after Hawaii was no problem for the Cardinals as they down Roosevelt 103-83 in Chicago. It was 47-46 NCC at the half, but the Cardinals caught fire in the third quarter to pull away. Anita Sterling went bonkers with 28 points, 6 rebounds, and 6 steals. Michaela Reedy scored 17, and freshman Maya Walls put up 12. Mayson Whipple and Caroline Heimerdinger each notched 7 assists.

NCC plays for the tournament championship against Concordia-Michigan tomorrow afternoon.

[Mr. Ypsi]

A week off after Hawaii was no problem for the Cardinals as they down Roosevelt 103-83 in Chicago. It was 47-46 NCC at the half, but the Cardinals caught fire in the third quarter to pull away. Anita Sterling went bonkers with 28 points, 6 rebounds, and 6 steals. Michaela Reedy scored 17, and freshman Maya Walls put up 12. Mayson Whipple and Caroline Heimerdinger each notched 7 assists.

NCC plays for the tournament championship against Concordia-Michigan tomorrow afternoon.

I'll have to stay neutral on that game.  I'm CCIW to the bone, but CUAA is four miles from my house!

[RogK]

Attended the NC game and concur with Imitzel's summary. Lots of good effort by the Cardinals and the host Lakers, although some sloppiness presented itself.
NC had 29 steals, including Sterling's 6, Diamond Calicott's 5, Maya Walls's 4 and 3 by Natali Dimitrova.
Jamie Cuny was there, but didn't "suit up" for the contest; perhaps a previous upper body injury was acting up.
I expect tomorrow's NC game to be competitive and hard-fought. Concordia Ann Arbor has a number of talented players. Those Cardinals did hang on for a 9 point win over Governor's State, but were patient to a fault in many possessions, often foregoing open looks. We'll see if they run with NC or try to slow things. CUAA's energetic point guard Mia Long was fun to watch.

[lmitzel]

Attended the NC game and concur with Imitzel's summary. Lots of good effort by the Cardinals and the host Lakers, although some sloppiness presented itself.
NC had 29 steals, including Sterling's 6, Diamond Calicott's 5, Maya Walls's 4 and 3 by Natali Dimitrova.
Jamie Cuny was there, but didn't "suit up" for the contest; perhaps a previous upper body injury was acting up.
I expect tomorrow's NC game to be competitive and hard-fought. Concordia Ann Arbor has a number of talented players. Those Cardinals did hang on for a 9 point win over Governor's State, but were patient to a fault in many possessions, often foregoing open looks. We'll see if they run with NC or try to slow things. CUAA's energetic point guard Mia Long was fun to watch.

She only played three minutes of North Central's win over Occidental in Hawaii last week. I think she hurt her shoulder back at Benedictine (and I only know this based on the way it was wrapped in the Illinois Wesleyan game, which is the last time I saw them live), so I don't know if she reaggravated it or if this is something else entirely.

It's nice this year to have a little depth at the 5. Anita is fantastic as the first one at that spot off the bench and has done well starting in Jamie's place, but having people like Maya Walls and even Kelly Wallner, who has improved from her first two years, backing her up is an asset.

[GoPerry]

For the 2nd straight day, the Thunder must contend with the Banana Slugs . . .

It's been almost 3 weeks since Wheaton played its last game, a road loss to Oshkosh.  Let's hope the beautiful SoCal weather doesn't prevent the Thunder ladies from coming out ready to play this afternoon.  I suspect Ellie Zeller's return to the lineup should be happening any day now – perhaps during this trip and I would also like to see Chantal Meacham find her much needed shooting stroke after a rather slow start.  Today and tomorrow's game(Whitworth) are expected wins and if successful, 2-0 will be a welcome resumption of play prior to a week of tough matchups @ Augie and @IWU to begin the new year.

[Gregory Sager]

Of course, it makes sense that the top programs where there's been good investments, coaching and facilities in women's basketball are able to attract increasingly talented women players.  Much of this, of course, mirrors earlier investments and strong programs and facilities on the men's side.

Actually, it really doesn't mirror it at all. As I said, almost all of the 420 or so men's basketball programs in D3 are designed and resourced to be competitive, at least within the context of the school and its league. That is most certainly not the case on the women's side. I could name a whole bunch of schools right off of the top of my head that have terrible women's programs that regularly lose games by 30 or 40 points and whose men's programs are never even close to being drubbed like that on a regular basis -- and, in fact, some of those schools have very good men's programs. For the most part, the women's and men's sides of D3 basketball are apples and oranges, and even when you make comparisons between the two sports -- as I did with CCIW scoring and assists averages the other day -- you have to qualify your statements with plenty of caveats. (Fortunately, I was emphasizing a difference rather than a similarity. )

Schools had to do much of this for the women due to Title IX and the wish to compete in recruiting students generrally.  My point was not there, but at the lower end and the lower end of the bench at the less strong programs.  That's where, IMHO, there just isn't the talent in the D3 women's game.

"The lower end of the bench at the less strong programs"? Seriously? Since when has the lower end of the bench mattered for anything other than practice depth and admissions/GPA/graduation quotas?