WBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I'm always told by many at state schools that there may be some aid packages, but they are minimal at best.

I do wonder if there is a difference in the aid given to in-state versus out of state.

How much state schools can give in aid is always something I struggle to grasp. I get told different things by a lot of different people. It very likely is similar to the privates where each school is different, but the privates at least is something I understand. The state-side is one that I get conflicting info on from many.

[WUPHF]

I had a feeling I was missing out on a financial aid discussion somewhere on the boards.

In my experience, the state schools vary drastically from state to state and institution to institution.

My alma mater has a sticker price of $8,XXX but just about everyone qualifies for a $2,000 scholarship and many qualify for a $4,XXX that is applied based entirely on formula of GPA and college boards.

Students will a low estimated family contribution will universally get need based aid at the privates, but there are publics that offer need based grants as well.

I think it would be incredibly interesting to build a graph that charts perceived affordability along with estimated family contribution.  I would need to do the research, but I believe there is a range of EFC that would favor the publics.

[Enginerd]

I was also reminded today of something I said earlier ... if the students are out of state, they aren't getting these in-state tuition numbers. Look at the Salisbury women's lacrosse roster ... it is shockingly filled with out of state students. They are paying probably close to $30k a year (depending on any academic aid allowed; I can't speak to that) to go to Salisbury. That is as much if not more than they could probably pay at a private school. That's where the program (or maybe academics) is why they are there versus the state school having some financial advantage no one can touch.

I was told recently by the family of a prospective student-athlete in our town that Illinois kids (or at least those whom live in counties close to the border) receive in-state tuition at UW-Whitewater (unsure about the other UW schools)- or at least that is what they were told during the recruiting process. Many states do this. This is difficult to overcome when a private college is recruiting the same student-athlete and it's going to cost $30,000 AFTER financial aid - and the same kid's total bill is $15,000 at UWW even BEFORE the financial aid process plays out. Additionally, the financial aid department at a state school has no need to scrutinize the FAFSA when awarding financial aid as a private school would - it's already subsidized and about as cheap as it can get even without the Federal stuff like a Pell Grant or the loans...

nothing illegal or untoward by UWW, it's the same for everyone and many, many state schools in almost every state have a similar arrangement - but that doesn't mean it isn't a big advantage when you start recruiting athletes. More power to 'em...

I would also be interested in how much success on the national stage that the UW schools have had when compared to the private colleges in the state. I'd be surprised if there were not a huge disparity.

Really no difference from the example within D-III of highly-regarded private colleges with successful athletic departments and gigantic endowments whom can afford to give athletes enormous aid packages (relatively-speaking) when compared to smaller liberal arts colleges that are struggling to keep the doors open. Some can and some cannot.

[WUPHF]

Additionally, the financial aid department at a state school has no need to scrutinize the FAFSA when awarding financial aid as a private school would - it's already subsidized and about as cheap as it can get even without the Federal stuff like a Pell Grant or the loans...

For 99% of colleges and universities, the FAFSA is evaluated in the same manner as determined by the code of federal regulations.

Really no difference from the example within D-III of highly-regarded private colleges with successful athletic departments and gigantic endowments whom can afford to give athletes enormous aid packages (relatively-speaking) when compared to smaller liberal arts colleges that are struggling to keep the doors open. Some can and some cannot.

I think you might be surprised to the extent to which the elite private institutions are not giving out enormous financial aid packages to athletes

[Enginerd]

Additionally, the financial aid department at a state school has no need to scrutinize the FAFSA when awarding financial aid as a private school would - it's already subsidized and about as cheap as it can get even without the Federal stuff like a Pell Grant or the loans...

For 99% of colleges and universities, the FAFSA is evaluated in the same manner as determined by the code of federal regulations.

Really no difference from the example within D-III of highly-regarded private colleges with successful athletic departments and gigantic endowments whom can afford to give athletes enormous aid packages (relatively-speaking) when compared to smaller liberal arts colleges that are struggling to keep the doors open. Some can and some cannot.

I think you might be surprised to the extent to which the elite private institutions are not giving out enormous financial aid packages to athletes

I am well aware of the fact that there are a great many highly-regarded, "Elite" D-III schools that give financial aid that is not commensurate with the size of their endowment. If families are beating down your doors and will pay, why spend the money?

So - most public school financial aid departments are weighing test scores, GPA, class rank, and Eagle scout status, to make a Merit Award determination for in state students? I was under the impression that a "Merit" award, while certainly a "thing" at certain public schools, was to a far greater extent a private college phenomenon. Furthermore - Are you stating that private college financial aid departments do not scrutinize FAFSA information when deciding how much Merit money to give-and to whom? A genuine question on my part - I had always assumed it was so...

[WUPHF]

So - most public school financial aid departments are weighing test scores, GPA, class rank, and Eagle scout status, to make a Merit Award determination for in state students? I was under the impression that a "Merit" award, while certainly a "thing" at certain public schools, was to a far greater extent a private college phenomenon. Furthermore - Are you stating that private college financial aid departments do not scrutinize FAFSA information when deciding how much Merit money to give-and to whom? A genuine question on my part - I had always assumed it was so...

Pardon the overly simplistic explanation: here is how the vast majority of schools do financial aid for the vast majority of their students...

[Looks at grid]

GPA + ACT = scholarship

Then, the vast majority of schools use the Estimated Family Contribution from the FAFSA, and apply a simple formula of Cost of Attendance - Merit Scholarship (and external scholarships if applicable) - EFC = Unmet Need.

Then, they apply the Pell Grant, supplemental grans, need-based State Aid, Stafford Loans, Perkins Loan, Work-Study and assuming eligibility and then apply institutional need based aid if necessary.

This is why I mentioned in a previous post that I would like perceived and real affordability graphs created for public and private institutions.  My theory is that the coach at Carroll is better off targeting high need students while the coach at Wisconsin-Whitewater has a sweet-spot in those families who are just outside of Pell range.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I was also reminded today of something I said earlier ... if the students are out of state, they aren't getting these in-state tuition numbers. Look at the Salisbury women's lacrosse roster ... it is shockingly filled with out of state students. They are paying probably close to $30k a year (depending on any academic aid allowed; I can't speak to that) to go to Salisbury. That is as much if not more than they could probably pay at a private school. That's where the program (or maybe academics) is why they are there versus the state school having some financial advantage no one can touch.

I was told recently by the family of a prospective student-athlete in our town that Illinois kids (or at least those whom live in counties close to the border) receive in-state tuition at UW-Whitewater (unsure about the other UW schools)- or at least that is what they were told during the recruiting process. Many states do this. This is difficult to overcome when a private college is recruiting the same student-athlete and it's going to cost $30,000 AFTER financial aid - and the same kid's total bill is $15,000 at UWW even BEFORE the financial aid process plays out. Additionally, the financial aid department at a state school has no need to scrutinize the FAFSA when awarding financial aid as a private school would - it's already subsidized and about as cheap as it can get even without the Federal stuff like a Pell Grant or the loans...

nothing illegal or untoward by UWW, it's the same for everyone and many, many state schools in almost every state have a similar arrangement - but that doesn't mean it isn't a big advantage when you start recruiting athletes. More power to 'em...

I would also be interested in how much success on the national stage that the UW schools have had when compared to the private colleges in the state. I'd be surprised if there were not a huge disparity.

Really no difference from the example within D-III of highly-regarded private colleges with successful athletic departments and gigantic endowments whom can afford to give athletes enormous aid packages (relatively-speaking) when compared to smaller liberal arts colleges that are struggling to keep the doors open. Some can and some cannot.

No ... I don't think "many" states give out in-state tuition to neighboring states. For example, I know for a fact that Maryland, Pennsylvania, and others do NOT. I have been talking to friends with "kids" heading to colleges and the other state's tuition for state schools did NOT make it better. They rather stay in-state. I bring up my Frostburg example as well. They plan, as part of their DII scholarships, to offer in-state tuition to out-of-state student-athletes - but again, that is for them only and they are spinning it as part of a scholarship. West Virginia schools, from what I'm told, do the same. They wouldn't be doing that if they already offered in-state tuition to neighboring state residents.

[Enginerd]

I was also reminded today of something I said earlier ... if the students are out of state, they aren't getting these in-state tuition numbers. Look at the Salisbury women's lacrosse roster ... it is shockingly filled with out of state students. They are paying probably close to $30k a year (depending on any academic aid allowed; I can't speak to that) to go to Salisbury. That is as much if not more than they could probably pay at a private school. That's where the program (or maybe academics) is why they are there versus the state school having some financial advantage no one can touch.

I was told recently by the family of a prospective student-athlete in our town that Illinois kids (or at least those whom live in counties close to the border) receive in-state tuition at UW-Whitewater (unsure about the other UW schools)- or at least that is what they were told during the recruiting process. Many states do this. This is difficult to overcome when a private college is recruiting the same student-athlete and it's going to cost $30,000 AFTER financial aid - and the same kid's total bill is $15,000 at UWW even BEFORE the financial aid process plays out. Additionally, the financial aid department at a state school has no need to scrutinize the FAFSA when awarding financial aid as a private school would - it's already subsidized and about as cheap as it can get even without the Federal stuff like a Pell Grant or the loans...

nothing illegal or untoward by UWW, it's the same for everyone and many, many state schools in almost every state have a similar arrangement - but that doesn't mean it isn't a big advantage when you start recruiting athletes. More power to 'em...

I would also be interested in how much success on the national stage that the UW schools have had when compared to the private colleges in the state. I'd be surprised if there were not a huge disparity.

Really no difference from the example within D-III of highly-regarded private colleges with successful athletic departments and gigantic endowments whom can afford to give athletes enormous aid packages (relatively-speaking) when compared to smaller liberal arts colleges that are struggling to keep the doors open. Some can and some cannot.

No ... I don't think "many" states give out in-state tuition to neighboring states. For example, I know for a fact that Maryland, Pennsylvania, and others do NOT. I have been talking to friends with "kids" heading to colleges and the other state's tuition for state schools did NOT make it better. They rather stay in-state. I bring up my Frostburg example as well. They plan, as part of their DII scholarships, to offer in-state tuition to out-of-state student-athletes - but again, that is for them only and they are spinning it as part of a scholarship. West Virginia schools, from what I'm told, do the same. They wouldn't be doing that if they already offered in-state tuition to neighboring state residents.

Umm...found this in 30 seconds online. Maryland and West Virginia are specifically mentioned.

"Four regional compacts help students from nearly every state catch a break when it comes to paying for college across state lines. Qualifying students from 13 southern states (Alabama, Arkansas, Delaware, Georgia, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Mississippi, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia and West Virginia) can apply for in-state tuition at participating out-of-state colleges through the Southern Regional Education Board's Academic Common Market. And residents of six New England states (Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Rhode Island and Vermont) who enroll in an eligible program pay in-state tuition at 82 public colleges and universities in the area's Regional Student Program. For both of these regional programs, students must pursue a major that isn't offered in their home state to qualify for the tuition discounts"

...and this...Wisconsin apparently absolutely belongs to a pact with Minnesota...and the more focused one with counties in N. illinois...

"In addition to the regional agreements, some states have their own smaller reciprocity programs or offer flexibility when it comes to determining who qualifies for in-state tuition. Some of the arrangements apply to students from anywhere within a neighboring state; others extend only to students living in specific counties of the neighboring state or close to the state line. For example, Colorado and New Mexico have an agreement that allows qualifying students from either state to get in-state pricing in both states – a better deal than the regional Western Undergraduate Exchange program. Students from Minnesota and Wisconsin have a similar arrangement, allowing residents of either state to pay in-state rates at the other state's public institutions. And students from Washington, D.C., can receive up to $10,000 each year toward the difference between in-state and out-of-state tuition at any eligible public, four-year college in the U.S."

Oh, and...

"The Midwest Student Exchange program lets students from Illinois, Indiana, Kansas, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, North Dakota and Wisconsin receive tuition discounts at more than 100 participating colleges and universities. Public colleges in the program agree to charge eligible students no more than 150% of the school's in-state tuition, and participating private colleges cut 10% off the cost of tuition for students from the region. Students typically save between $500 and $5,000 per year. The Western Undergraduate Exchange program offers eligible students from 15 states (Alaska, Arizona, California, Colorado, Hawaii, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, North Dakota, Oregon, South Dakota, Utah, Washington and Wyoming) 150% of the in-state tuition rate at participating public colleges across the region"

I count 37 different states plus the District of Columbia that have some means of granting some measure of in-state tuition to residents of other states. By even the most narrow definition I think this number would qualify as "Many" When I originally wrote this most recent post, I was only specifically aware of a handful of state schools/border areas and peripherally aware of many more - now it is apparent there are many more I was unaware of.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Notice that while it mentions Maryland, Pennsylvania is not listed. West Virginia and Delaware are mentioned, but I am not sure more than that. What people in the know tell me may be what this is in reference to for West Virginia ... but an individual in Maryland who would know this stuff talked about how he can't get transfers or students from out of state unless they are willing to pay $30k+ a year (without aid) when in-state is getting just north of $10k.

Just sharing what those who know far better than I are telling me. I understand what you found, but that doesn't seem to explain everything.

[Enginerd]

Notice that while it mentions Maryland, Pennsylvania is not listed. West Virginia and Delaware are mentioned, but I am not sure more than that. What people in the know tell me may be what this is in reference to for West Virginia ... but an individual in Maryland who would know this stuff talked about how he can't get transfers or students from out of state unless they are willing to pay $30k+ a year (without aid) when in-state is getting just north of $10k.

Just sharing what those who know far better than I are telling me. I understand what you found, but that doesn't seem to explain everything.

Dave, I believe if we look hard enough, there are many, many instances of state schools close to the border that extend in-state tuition to students that live in counties from neighboring states that are close to the border. Particularly true in an area such as Hilton Head/Bluffton, SC and Savannah, GA. Armstrong State and Savannah State extend in-state tuition (which my daughter-in-law takes advantage of) to Beaufort County residents - and USC Beaufort extends the same courtesy to 2-3 adjoining counties in GA - I believe this practice is especially prevalent in areas where a state border exists-but the communities share a great deal in common such a lifestyle...etc...

UWW is undoubtedly an example of this - and although I'm certain nobody making those decisions had athletics in mind - they benefit mightily from it. They have always had a huge advantage over private schools in WI to begin with, and now they can beat the hell out of D-III's in the Chicago area and all of N, Illinois.
- Almost 45% of UWW's football roster are actually ILLINOIS residents.
- 11 of 34 baseball players at UWW are from ILLINOIS
- 8 of 23 women's basketball players

As for your example, it is doubtful the coach you spoke with in Maryland is even aware of that program - I took a second look and it only applies to students who cannot find their major in-state. He could stay at his school for 100 years and might never have a single transfer under that condition.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

That last part makes sense ...

And Frostburg State offering in-state tuition as part of the DII scholarship makes sense.

The key also in DIII ... why would anyone consider going to a school if their major (or something they are interested in) isn't at said school?

[Enginerd]

That last part makes sense ...

And Frostburg State offering in-state tuition as part of the DII scholarship makes sense.

The key also in DIII ... why would anyone consider going to a school if their major (or something they are interested in) isn't at said school?

I believe many public low and mid-major Division I's have a certain number of in-state tuition waivers that can be extended to out-of state "walk-on's".
These are especially important in non-revenue men's sports such as baseball and golf that are only allowed a certain number of scholarships. Most folks don't realize that even at the Power-5 baseball/golf programs, you have to be a phenom to have a full-ride.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

The only sports in the entire NCAA that you will get a full-ride guarunteed are basketball and football at the D1 level. It is part of the rule they have to give full rides. Otherwise, all other sports can divide up their scholarships however they want, however if they give out a full ride to someone, they probably eliminate giving any money from anywhere from three to six others.

[Gregory Sager]

...and this...Wisconsin apparently absolutely belongs to a pact with Minnesota...and the more focused one with counties in N. illinois...

This. What Enginerd cites here is a very big deal for D3 schools in this part of the country, Dave. Not only does UWW have the opportunity to dip into Chicagoland -- which has half again more residents than the entire state of Wisconsin has -- for recruiting while offering in-state tuition rates to Chicagolanders, but I'm pretty sure that UWO now offers the same thing. And, as Enginerd documented, it is reflected in their rosters. The same thing holds true on the lesser-populated western side of America's Dairyland, where schools such as UW-LaCrosse, UW-Stout, UW-Eau Claire, and UW-River Falls would normally be at a competitive disadvantage with UWW, UWO, and UWSP because they're farther away from the state's main population centers. But the reciprocity agreement between Wisconsin and Minnesota allows the western schools to recruit the Twin Cities metro area -- and that's a very big deal, because metro Minneapolis-St. Paul has over three and a half million people in it, and the metro area is so close to the border that two western Wisconsin counties, one of which includes River Falls, are considered to be part of it. Menominee, the town in which UW-Stout is located, is one county east of the metro Twin Cities region. Eau Claire is a little over an hour's drive from downtown St. Paul.

Again, this is a very big deal out here, Dave. D3 people in the upper midwest talk about these reciprocity agreements a lot, and I'm sure that they're cited on the recruiting trail by coaches and used by student-athletes.

Also, to back up Gordon's point, North Park is a WYSIWYG private school in the same sort of way as York (PA), and I can say that without a doubt that it's dramatically more expensive than a state school. A year's tuition at NPU is $25,740, and with room & board it's $34,200. Like I said, it's WYSIWYG, so you can't expect a ton of financial aid from the school to cut into that amount, especially since what aid there is tends to go to high-need students. Right next door, just a couple of blocks west on Foster Avenue, is Northeastern Illinois University, a state school of WIAC proportions (i.e., about 7,700 undergrads). NEIU's tuition is $11,320 per year. Room and board is expensive there, since it's a commuter school with limited housing availability, but even with r&b added in the cost is still $22,744, or about two-thirds of what it costs to go to NPU down the street.

[iwu70]

IWU to play two exhibition games pre-season against DI foes.  They will play Eastern IL and then SIU-Edwardsville (where coach Mia Smith was a student and basketball and softball star).  Should be good opportunities to toughen up and prepare for the long slog of the CCIW season.  I expect this Titan team to be very good, even as Ehresman and McGraw have exited the program by way of graduation.  Looking forward to how this team develops and continues the fine tradition of women's roundball at IWU.

'70