WBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[wheatonc]

Wheaton has won all of their conference road games this year and have a 4-3 conference home record.  All Thunder fans are hoping that they stay unbeaten on the road Tuesday!

[Fawkes316]

I deleted a few posts, which seem to be outdated, because of an interpretation by the league. But in the end nothing changes in the women's end of the bracket (I think, but I really don't know. Once you start assuming things that aren't actually in the rules, you can do pretty much whatever you want.)

In the end, though, a very complicated situation is still very simple:

Wheaton wins they host, lose we all go to Bloomington.

Elmhurst wins they're in, regardless of what Carthage does.

Elmhurst loses Carthage is in, regardless of what Carthage does.

Wheaton and Elmhurst control their own destiny.

Millikin, sorry you're out.

[Fawkes316]

Okay, there is no support for this in the Women's Basketball, or quite frankly, the Men's Basketball Handbooks, but it appears that the conference is planning to use an assumption not written in the rules to break ties.

My understanding is that they are planning to decide each place separately, sequentially and distinctly. Meaning multiple team ties will be broken by separate applications of the tiebreakers. While this may seem logical, it is stated nowhere in the handbook.

The tiebreaking system is a relic of an age gone by, when there wasn't a conference tournament, and it wasn't necessary to break ties in third or fourth place. It's time that both sets of coaches clarify the rules and take the judgement calls out of the hands of the conference office.

[Fawkes316]

Under this "official" procedure the new scenarios look like this:

No change to the scenario if Wheaton beats Carthage: Elmhurst wins there in, Elmhurst loses then Carthage is in.

If Wheaton loses to Carthage and Elmhurst beats Millikin, here's where the interpretation comes in: Since Illinois Wesleyan and Wheaton are trying to break a first place tie between two teams, then I think (but who knows now) that we can follow the letter of the rules. In which, case Illinois Wesleyan is first because of their composite records against the teams tied for third place (the rules specifically mention: teams). Now North Park wins the third place tiebreak with a better record against Elmhurst and Carthage head-to-head.

Now the tiebreaker starts over again. My understanding is that Illinois Wesleyan is now considered the first place team, Wheaton second place, and North Park third. For fourth place, Elmhurst and Carthage split head-to-head. The next tiebreaker is record against the highest team above the tie. Under this interpretation that team is Illinois Wesleyan, and Elmhurst split with them and Carthage was swept. So nothing changes here either.

The fourth scenario doesn't change either. Long story short, Wheaton still needs to win in order to host and Elmhurst still needs to win to get in.

Hopefully, this confusion and I am sure some controversy will convince the coaches to amend the tiebreaker process to make it more clear.

[Fawkes316]

The CCIW website has listed scenarios on their website. http://www.cciw.org/winter_bball_w/2006_wbbchamp_page.php The three they have listed agree with mine, but apparently they don't think that it is possible for Carthage to beat Wheaton and Elmhurst to beat Millikin, because it isn't listed.

There are giant flaws in these tiebreakers. It's time for a new system. It shouldn't come down to interpretation. It should be written in plain, straightfoward language.

[Pat Coleman]

Now the tiebreaker starts over again.

This is how most conferences do it.

Otherwise, here's what you end up with: Say you have three teams tied for a spot, A, B, and C. A is 3-1 against the group, B is 2-2 and C is 1-3. A gets slotted in and breaks out of the tie.

Now you have just B and C. If you use the previous records above, now the games between A and C are being used to determine a tie between B and C. A two-way tie between B and C should first use just games between those two teams.

This discussion came up yesterday on the men's board. I brought it to the league's attention and perhaps the new scenarios are a result of the more logical tiebreaking system.

[Fawkes316]

Pat, I don't disagree with your logic at all. In fact, I think that it would make a lot more sense if that is what the rules stated, but the truth is that they don't. It doesn't seem right to me for there to be some hidden interpretation that is conjured up a week before the tournament. It was created without consulting coaches or athletic directors, and it was presented as the plain face meaning of the tiebreaker. Well, it isn't, though I am willing to admit that maybe it should be.

It still leaves the question of whether you consider a first place tie to be decided, when determining lower placed ties. In other words, in the fourth scenario is Illinois Wesleyan considered the sole first place team, or are they still tied with Wheaton for purposes of the tiebreaker. The rules are completely silent on this. My issue is that this decision will be made completely in the consideration of commissioner, and the team that loses out will have little or no redress to the rules. It seems very arbitrary to me, and it shouldn't be the way these things are decided.

There are flaws in this way of doing it as well. If Illinois Wesleyan becomes the top seed by virtue of the three way tie for third place, then Elmhurst gets the tiebreaker for fourth (under one interpretation) because of their record against Illinois Wesleyan. But now that Elmhurst is fourth, you have to ask yourself why isn't Wheaton first, since  they had a better record against Elmhurst? But if you move Wheaton up, because Elmhurst is in fourth, now Carthage deserves to be in fourth place, because of their better record against Wheaton.

At some point you have to have arbitrary decisions made like this, but it is my contention that they should be made with as much consultation of the rules, and  consistency as possible.  I appreciate you pointing out these issues, I just wish that it had happened sooner, so a fair and consistent system could have been worked out. Hopefully, it will be this year.

[Fawkes316]

Ok, so the final scenario is posted on the CCIW website. If Elmhurst beats Millikin and Carthage beats Wheaton, then Illinois Wesleyan hosts and Carthage is in over Elmhurst. Apparently, for the purposes of the fourth place tiebreaker, Wheaton and Illinois Wesleyan are still considered to be tied.

I have been negative about what I see as an arbitrary interpretation of the rules, but in the end I think this is the closest to what the rules state as possible.  I am reasonably satisfied with the decision that was reached, but I do hope that the tiebreaking procedure is more clearly stated in the future.

Let's play the games, so we can be done with all this junk!

[wheatonc]

Wheaton wins the regular season CCIW championship outright for the first time since 1999.  The Thunder will host the conference tournament this weekend.  #2 IWU will play #3 North Park and Wheaton will play #4 Carthage on Friday.  The championship game will be played on Saturday afternoon.  Congrats to the Thunder!

[Gregory Sager]

Wheaton 53, Carthage 42
Millikin 76, Elmhurst 67

FRIDAY'S SEMIFINALS, @ WHEATON:
North Park vs. Illinois Wesleyan, 6 pm
Carthage @ Wheaton, 8 pm

SATURDAY'S FINALS, @ WHEATON:
Vikings or Titans vs. Lady Reds or Thunder, 2 pm

[Jim Matson]

Should be some good action on Friday in Wheaton.  North Park could be playing Wheaton for yet another CCIW AQ on Saturday!  Let the rivalry continue!

[Fawkes316]

I just heard that former Wheaton player Sarah Harris, who is the daughter of Wheaton Men's Head Coach Bill Harris, just got the head coaching job at Grove City College in Pennsylvania. Congratulations, Sarah!

[TitanPride24]

I heard that the Titan women beat North Park 49-46 tonight.

[Gregory Sager]

Man, what a tough loss for the Park. NPU led almost the entire game, and was up nine at the half. Wesleyan didn't catch the Vikings until there was only 3:30 left in the game, when they tied it up at 44 apiece. After almost two and a half minutes of nail-biting scorelessness, Evie Peterson's jumper put NPU ahead again. The Titans tied it with under a minute left, and then Wesleyan got its first and only lead of the game on a Val Fleischman three-point play with 7.7 seconds left on the clock. Laura Mount's trey attempt at the buzzer was long.

I've never seen a team get snakebit as badly as NPU did in that second half. No fewer than three shots for the Vikings in that second stanza went down into the cylinder, spun around, and popped back out, the last one being a Shandrel Young leaner with under a minute left. In all my years of watching basketball, I've never seen anything like it. The basketball gods were kind to Wesleyan, and pretty darn cruel to the Park.

Since it was their final game, I want to say a hearty thank-you to graduating seniors Megan Slattery and Shandrel Young for four great years of basketball. Both are former All-CCIW players, both end their careers in the all-time top ten in NPU scoring with over 1,100 points apiece, and Young is in the CCIW record books as the conference's all-time single-season and career leader in free throw attempts. They were both terrific players and outstanding students who exemplified the best of North Park University both on and off the court. They will be missed.

[Fawkes316]

Wheaton won the conference tournament today, 74-60, over Illinois Wesleyan. The offense carried them today; at one point in the first half they were 8-10 from three point range, I believe.

I don't think it is the end of the road for IWU though. Looking at the Pool C candidates from the region, the only teams with better region winning percentages are Lawrence and Concordia (Wisc.) at .750, and UW-Oshkosh at .708. Illinois Wesleyan's is .696 and they have the best QoWI by far at 9.913, by my calculations. Oshkosh is 9.667, Lawrence 9.65 and Concordia 8.72.

Of course, Pool C is selected on a national basis, but you have to assume that at least two Central region teams will get Pool C bids. My guess would be that Lawrence and Illinois Wesleyan and maybe Oshkosh will be invited.