Pool C -- 2011

[softballrz]

is it as simple as pool A auto bids require a min number of teams in the conference.  9? 

[Pat Coleman]

Seven is the minimum, and currently that is the only real standard -- seven full members of Division III.

[smedindy]

Thanks to everyone in the debate for staying on topic. I know my position on Pool A is controversial and there are going to be a lot of people who vehemently disagree.

@Smed - We definitely disagree on some important points, but you are a good poster and I appreciate your opinion. Much respect.

Thanks! You as well.

[Ralph Turner]

Programs keep adding football at the D3 level... We'll be in the 245 vicinity soon.  Do the math as conferences begin to even out.  Taking out the NESCAC, 235 divided by 7 = ~34.  We wouldn't have enough Pool A bids, let alone Pool C, if conferences begin to scatter out more.

I hear what you are saying, but the access ratio is not likely to change much.

We will continue to have the 10-team conferences and even the 11-team conferences such as the Midwest Conference when Cornell joins.

If you move the requirement for Pool A bid to 8 teams, the Access Ratio would go up a tiny bit.  The MIAA might add Finlandia to get to 8.  The SAA might add Huntingdon, unless Oglethorpe added football.  Chapman has already joined the SCIAC. Shenandoah has gone to the ODAC.  The USA South replaces Shenandoah with LaGrange.

The only other 7-team conference (and I defer to the East Region posters to update the shuffling) is the E8.  With the access ratio at 8+, that means that Pool B can hold 16 teams for one bid!

[Ralph Turner]

That's still just a net gain of one, though, Ralph. 25 includes a current SCAC bid. The SAA would make it 26.

Thanks.  My bad!

[smedindy]

Programs keep adding football at the D3 level... We'll be in the 245 vicinity soon.  Do the math as conferences begin to even out.  Taking out the NESCAC, 235 divided by 7 = ~34.  We wouldn't have enough Pool A bids, let alone Pool C, if conferences begin to scatter out more.

They won't scatter. They'll try to have an even number (8 or 10 teams). You seem to still think it's some nefarious plot to wind up only at 7. That causes all kinds of headaches.

Again, the ECFC is interested in football as it relates to their institutions and their student athletes. Not every school, nor conference, cares about the D-3 playoffs as intently as the power conferences. The playoffs are a cherry. But it is in their interest to qualify for them.

[smedindy]

Programs keep adding football at the D3 level... We'll be in the 245 vicinity soon.  Do the math as conferences begin to even out.  Taking out the NESCAC, 235 divided by 7 = ~34.  We wouldn't have enough Pool A bids, let alone Pool C, if conferences begin to scatter out more.

I hear what you are saying, but the access ratio is not likely to change much.

We will continue to have the 10-team conferences and even the 11-team conferences such as the Midwest Conference when Cornell joins.

If you move the requirement for Pool A bid to 8 teams, the Access Ratio would go up a tiny bit.  The MIAA might add Finlandia to get to 8.  The SAA might add Huntingdon, unless Oglethorpe added football.  Chapman has already joined the SCIAC. Shenandoah has gone to the ODAC.  The USA South replaces Shenandoah with LaGrange.

The only other 7-team conference (and I defer to the East Region posters to update the shuffling) is the E8.  With the access ratio at 8+, that means that Pool B can hold 16 teams for one bid!

Wouldn't Finlandia be a better fit in the UMAC?

[Mr. Ypsi]

Programs keep adding football at the D3 level... We'll be in the 245 vicinity soon.  Do the math as conferences begin to even out.  Taking out the NESCAC, 235 divided by 7 = ~34.  We wouldn't have enough Pool A bids, let alone Pool C, if conferences begin to scatter out more.

I hear what you are saying, but the access ratio is not likely to change much.

We will continue to have the 10-team conferences and even the 11-team conferences such as the Midwest Conference when Cornell joins.

If you move the requirement for Pool A bid to 8 teams, the Access Ratio would go up a tiny bit.  The MIAA might add Finlandia to get to 8.  The SAA might add Huntingdon, unless Oglethorpe added football.  Chapman has already joined the SCIAC. Shenandoah has gone to the ODAC.  The USA South replaces Shenandoah with LaGrange.

The only other 7-team conference (and I defer to the East Region posters to update the shuffling) is the E8.  With the access ratio at 8+, that means that Pool B can hold 16 teams for one bid!

Wouldn't Finlandia be a better fit in the UMAC?

At least geographically that is certainly true - Finlandia is in Michigan, but the nearest MIAA school is over 400 miles away!  A more likely possibility: Calvin (MIAA in all other sports) has talked about (and rejected) starting football for many years, but those most opposed to it seem to have mostly retired/died off.  There seems to be a growing belief in the MIAA that they will finally start a team in the near future.

[smedindy]

Well, even though they're a WIAC member in men's soccer, I can't see Finlandia joining the WIAC for anything else!

I do think for the sake of something or other Wesley and Huntingdon should find a spot in a football conference. I know in Minnesota, the high school athletic association 'forces' teams into conferences, which can cause ripple effects and unintended consequences. But if the "B" pool in football goes away because of a lack of members, then they can sweat out a "C" or find a conference that will take them.

Also, if more teams add football in the conferences that host the ECFC and NEFC schools in other sports, they could revert to their natural conference homes. Perhaps. Maybe. Who knows.

[jknezek]

is it as simple as pool A auto bids require a min number of teams in the conference.  9?

Moving up to 9 creates its own set of problems, one of which is that you only get 1 out of conference game per year. Good luck arguing about whatever Pool C bids your trying to give away when you really have nothing to compare. I know the people that support traditional power conferences want to jump in and say "we deserve them", but year to year that's going to be ridiculously subjective with extremely limited cross-conference games.

I would also like to see the WIAC find another member! Good luck fellas finding someone who wants to join that meat grinder unless you can get UW-Superior to start football. So are we just going to throw the WIAC completely into Pool C because of the type of conference that they are? That conference sets up as 8 for a reason, and there isn't a simple solution to forcing conferences to add members solely for football.

A different great example is the ODAC, which is going from 7 to 8 football members, counting Catholic as an associate member. But for other sports, the conference already has 11 teams and is going to 12 next year when Shenandoah comes in. One of the reasons it took Shenandoah so long to join is there are just too many members for many of the ODAC sports. So you take these conferences, that are very specific to types of schools, and you start artificially constructing problems just because of football. That is completely against the concept of D3.

There are two very simple solutions. One is that the NCAA actually moves to create a D1 playoff, taking revenue from the power conferences (like in basketball) and sharing it out between all NCAA schools. This might allow for D3 playoffs to expand again. Odds on that? Low. The other is that we stop worrying about Pool C and admit that the D3 tournament isn't about having the best 32 teams in the country play, it's about having champions play and crowning a Champion's Champion. Amazingly, with the exception of 6 lucky second-chance teams and 1 Pool B, we're pretty close to that concept already.

As far as I'm concerned, we can add 6 more 7 team conferences and I won't cry, assuming there are at least 6 or 7 independents for that one Pool B. Pool C is nice to have for those teams that have 1 loss that could have gone differently, or a team that lost on the road to a team that they could have beaten if the schedule showed a home game. Other than that, 2 loss teams are just that, teams that have lost 20% of their games. Once might be unlucky. Twice means you just aren't good enough versus whatever teams you already play. No third chances necessary.

[AO]

Maybe a BCS style system would work better.  Give a certain weight to the D3football.com poll, the SOS, and recent playoff success.  Endicott's feelings will not be hurt.

[jknezek]

Maybe a BCS style system would work better.  Give a certain weight to the D3football.com poll, the SOS, and recent playoff success.  Endicott's feelings will not be hurt.

I'm really hoping this is tongue in cheek. The only thing the BCS is the answer to is: "What is the all-time worst way to crown a national champion?"

[smedindy]

Slight correction - a 9 team league means 8 conference games and two non-conference games. But the issue is that one team is the odd team out each week. Eight or ten team leagues are best because when you get to conference play you can have every team active that week.

Other sports are more logical for a divisional set up. If you have a 12-team league in hoops or soccer or baseball, you can make it into divisional play with a conference tourney. But you are right jknezek, unlike D-1A, D-3 conferences should be about the leagues as a whole and each sport in the league, not just football.

I think the worst thing about the shuffling in D-1 is the ripple effect on other sports. Syracuse not playing Georgetown in hoops? Texas A&M not playing Texas in baseball?

[smedindy]

Maybe a BCS style system would work better.  Give a certain weight to the D3football.com poll, the SOS, and recent playoff success.  Endicott's feelings will not be hurt.

Of course you realize the BCS power ratings are completely neutered because they don't allow for margin of victory, even though the margin of victory calculations have laws of diminishing returns.

And again, what happened in 2010 doesn't matter in 2011. It's not the same group of athletes.

But if you're joking, I bit!

[HScoach]

In know this is off topic, but the BCS calculation would be the perfect way to award the at-large bids to a D1 playoff.  The 6 BCS conference champs get an AQ and then 2 at-large bids handed out to make a field of 8.    That would be perfect.

All I know about the D3 playoffs is that I'm thrilled we get to settle it on the field instead of the mess we have shoved down our throats in D1.