Pool C -- 2011

[Mr. Ypsi]

Pat (and/or Keith),

While you may well be right about IWU @ Franklin (and I agree it will almost certainly be the 4/5 game), I'm curious on your reasoning for the location.  IWU is SO far ahead of Franklin in SOS, that I'm hoping once the NATIONAL committee gets to seeding, their order will be reversed (NO WAY will IWU be ahead of Franklin in the REGIONAL rankings).  While neither location would surprise me, I figure it is probably 55% likely to be in B'town.

Thoughts?

[Pat Coleman]

Well, it matches what the NCAA has been doing already, first of all.

But I'll say this -- if you go to the secondary criteria and count all Division III opponents, Franklin's SOS increases by 40 points. Actually, so does UWW's. The gap may not be as big as it looks.

I don't see the order changing. All of these regional rankings go through the national committee every week anyway. There's nothing particularly magic about tonight, in my mind.

[Hemingway13]

After seeing the sagacious D3 Playoff Bracketology of "Coleman The Magnificent" and his merry band of Entrails-readers, Redlands' supporters will be hoping the D3football.com soothsayers have got it right with their forecast of a Redlands rematch at Cal-Lu (on 1 Oct., Kingsmen defeated U.R. 28-24).
[/size]
[/size]And, of course, this match-up would save some travel $$$.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Well, it matches what the NCAA has been doing already, first of all.

But I'll say this -- if you go to the secondary criteria and count all Division III opponents, Franklin's SOS increases by 40 points. Actually, so does UWW's. The gap may not be as big as it looks.

I don't see the order changing. All of these regional rankings go through the national committee every week anyway. There's nothing particularly magic about tonight, in my mind.

This I didn't know.  I always thought regional committees went strictly by regional criteria, while the national committee would tend to downgrade regional limitations.

And it totally slipped my mind that SOS was solely on regional games; once looking at the national picture, of course Franklin (and UWW) would both rise in SOS!

Nonetheless, IWU still remains a 'fair amount' above Franklin on SOS, and has an identical overall record.  I'm holding out hope the game (assuming it comes off) is in B'town - though Franklin IS about an hour closer to Ypsi!

[bleedpurple]

After seeing the sagacious D3 Playoff Bracketology of "Coleman The Magnificent" and his merry band of Entrails-readers, Redlands' supporters will be hoping the D3football.com soothsayers have got it right with their forecast of a Redlands rematch at Cal-Lu (on 1 Oct., Kingsmen defeated U.R. 28-24).
[/size]
[/size]And, of course, this match-up would save some travel $$$.

Thank you, Ernest. I think there's a great chance that this is the first time I've seen the word "sagacious" used on these boards, not to mention any reference at all of the word "entrails"! It's a bit early in the morning for an entrail reference for me personally, but nothing a good bowl of cereal won't overcome!  Keep up the good work!

[Mugsy]

Well, I think Wheaton is the best two-loss team. Unfortunately, that didn't help Wabash last year. Gotta win 'em to keep playin' 'em!

Wabash proved that sometimes having a bad scrimmage can be a good thing.  They were able fix their problems after the Wheaton scrimmage and Wheaton didn't see their weakness until IWU exposed it.  It just goes to show scrimmages are about fixing weaknesses and mean little else.  Good luck in the playoffs.

IWU didn't expose a weakness.  They played a solid defensive game and converted on Wheaton miscues.

[DanPadavona]

This is my projection for the "east" portion of the bracket. Like D3FB, I have Endicott getting a Pool C. I don't for a second believe Endicott is better than a lot of the other Pool C contenders who will be left out, but since the NCAA has a love affair with the highly flawed SOS metric, it looks like a no-brainer.

http://d3east-football.blogspot.com/2011/11/projections-for-ncaa-eastern-bracket.html

[DanPadavona]

I think you're more upset about the E8 having to scramble than anything. If it was a better fit for Norwich's student athletes then it was in the best decision for them.

Not an E8 fan. I'm a Cortland/NJAC graduate. I don't care who is scrambling in the E8.

Norwich is traveling from Vermont to DC to play Gallaudet because it is a better fit for them? And not taking the much shorter trip to Utica and Ithaca, which are both highly regarded institutions. Why do you make so many excuses for the ECFC making a joke out of the Pool A process?

[smedindy]

It's not a joke at all! How is it a joke? Is it more of a joke than the UMAC or the NATHC or NEFC?

The ECFC are institutions that are sponsoring football but their leagues do not - so why not form a league when it's relatively close by? When other more like-minded schools decided to form a football conference, they jumped. And yes, Vermont to DC is a bit of a stretch but so is all of the travel in the ASC.

The big thing is that D3 is served by Gaulladet having a place to play football - where it can be competitive. They're a perfect fit for this league.

And I'm sorry that a two-loss NJAC team won't make it. But just don't lose two!

[DanPadavona]

And if team 32 is Endicott or Illinois College, do you think they'd be closer than 49-0 with a Purple team anyway? Are you going to complain about THEM? Let's not be elitist which is anathema to D3.

Exactly. Let the weaker conferences have something to play for otherwise they might as well be like the NESCAC and not even bother with anyone else. Let them lose to the #1 seed rather than adding in a 3rd team from a conference to lose to the #1 seed. No one complains about a mediocre basketball team that wins the SWAC getting crushed in the first round by mighty Duke 90-33 do they?

There are major inconsistencies in your arguments.

First and foremost, the only reason for the D3 tournament to exist is to crown a champion and find out who the best team is. Therefor there is no logical reason not to make more of an effort to determine that the best teams are actually competing for the championship. If this was all about fair play and inclusion, there would be no reason for a tournament to begin with. Just end the season per the NESCAC and crown multiple champions across the country.

Secondly, I find it interesting that you believe the ECFC deserves a Pool A bid, but you don't believe the east as a region should be able to crown its own champion for the final four. Suddenly, you want Mount Union in the east because the bracket is not "strong enough" to your liking. I thought you didn't care about strength, and that this was just about meeting one qualification (7 teams in a conference)? At least be consistent in your arguments. The east as a region has plenty of enough teams to crown its own champion. Haven't they met their own qualification?

And finally...stating the ECFC went through a probationary period is rather weak. What was their probation? That they wouldn't cease to exist? Please, don't set the bar too high for them. I'd hate to see anyone fail.

[DanPadavona]

And I'm sorry that a two-loss NJAC team won't make it. But just don't lose two!

I never argued that a two-loss NJAC team should be in the tournament.

If your daughter was competing in a national spelling bee championship and had to emerge from 1 of 4 groups to make the finals, would you be upset if her group was spelling keitloa and preux to emerge, while the next group was forcing its members to spell dog and cat?

I know we'll never agree on this. I believe in challenging yourself, and that only people who challenge themselves should be awarded high accreditation (in this case, the ability to compete for a national sports championship). Actively seeking out the weakest challenges does not make you highly accredited when you pass those challenges. I believe low standards leads to a lazy society in general.

You say, "It's just sports." But that we are crowning a national champion proves it is taken much more seriously and held in a much higher regard than you are admitting.

[smedindy]

The D3 tournament does crown the champion. But it also about inclusion. Those aren't mutually exclusive. If it was about exclusion, then it'd be back to the old days where deserving conference champs were on the outside looking in. That did happen back in the 70's and 80's.

The NCAA is following its rules - and if they can balance the brackets they should. Del Val is 10-0, yes. But if they're going to win the championship they'd have to play Mt. Union, Whitewater or St. Thomas anyway.

The ECFC went through the required probationary period before it received its automatic bid - much like the SAA will after they get the required number of football playing schools.

[smedindy]

And I'm sorry that a two-loss NJAC team won't make it. But just don't lose two!

I never argued that a two-loss NJAC team should be in the tournament.

If your daughter was competing in a national spelling bee championship and had to emerge from 1 of 4 groups to make the finals, would you be upset if her group was spelling keitloa and preux to emerge, while the next group was forcing its members to spell dog and cat?

I know we'll never agree on this. I believe in challenging yourself, and that only people who challenge themselves should be awarded high accreditation (in this case, the ability to compete for a national sports championship). Actively seeking out the weakest challenges does not make you highly accredited when you pass those challenges. I believe low standards leads to a lazy society in general.

You say, "It's just sports." But that we are crowning a national champion proves it is taken much more seriously and held in a much higher regard than you are admitting.

Do you not think that everyone deserves a chance to attend a college or university, or only those from the elite private prep schools?

Do you not think that Norwich playing Mt. Union can help Norwich? I do.

[K-Mack]

I don't think making more games relevant necessarily defines "best". Personally I've found our (American) insistence on playoffs to be ridiculous. The single bracket European soccer leagues with perfectly balanced schedules crown their champion on who the best team is over the entire season. That to me has always been the absolute best method. If baseball can't figure out who the best team is over 150 games its just ridiculous to give a whole host more teams second shots in essentially an abbreviated second season where anything can occur becomes you have fewer results to let the "best" shine through.

I would take that a step farther and suggest in your baseball example, that the 162 game schedule is far more indicative of a team's worth than is a 3 or 4 game playoff. Milwaukee and St Louis were very good teams. But honestly neither could match up with the Philadelphia rotation over a 162 game season. I have a hard time believing Detroit could come within 5 games of the Yankees if they played in the AL East.

And don't even get started on March Madness. It's pretty rare that the best team during the season wins the NCAA tournament. Heck, we gleefully send 10-20 teams to the NCAA tournament because they won a 3 or 4 game conference tournament, and leave out the regular season champion which won 20+ games.

Yes, we are playoff addicted.

But as was rightly stated, the playoff system in pro sports keeps interest high in more cities, for longer periods of time. Without the playoff system, we completely miss out on the Tampa-Boston and St Louis-Atlanta dramas, which were truly epic.

Basically, this.

Relegation is awesome. And jknezek is right, there are certainly better ways to determine a more worthy champion.

But the playoffs are exciting, and they leave no room for dispute over who won it and why. In world full of uncertainty, playoffs provide an absolute. And since we watch sports to be excited, I don't have a problem sacrifcing a teeny bit of the perception of worthiness for the ton of excitement we gain.

Re: Pool C, mark these words (or don't): This is going to be a year when all the outrage is about the seeds and matchups, not the 32 teams that get in.

[DanPadavona]

Do you not think that everyone deserves a chance to attend a college or university, or only those from the elite private prep schools?

That wasn't the point I was making, and I think you know that. But if you want to go down that path, who gets the higher paying job most of the time...the state school grad or the Ivy league grad?

It's not about being elite, it's about who YOU would choose as a Dean of Admissions. If your choice is the kid who skated by with a high GPA but ridiculously easy classes, and no outside activities, versus the kid with a slightly lower GPA in AP courses and many outside activities, who do you choose? Which student has the best chance to make your institution grow?

An arbitrary decision to set the bar at 7 schools is just as arbitrary of deciding that any student with a 90 average gets in, whereas any student with an 89 average does not, with no regard to which classes were taken.