Pool C -- 2011

[smedindy]

Re: Pool C, mark these words (or don't): This is going to be a year when all the outrage is about the seeds and matchups, not the 32 teams that get in.

I think the 32nd team getting in, Endicott, is a joke and they'll be sent home in embarrassing fashion in the first round along with their NEFC Pool A rep...

The first round of the UMU bracket is going to be a massacre for the lower seeds...

A. The first round against any of the Purple won't be pretty
B. How is 49-35 a joke? Yes it was 42-14 at one point but Endicott fought back.
C. How is Maine Maritime losing to Montclair 38-22 a joke, when the next week Montclair lost 62-14? What's the bigger joke?

A. I didn't single out UMU, the entire UMU brackets lower seeds are going to get demolished in the first rounds if the D3.com bracket holds.

B. Endicott didn't belong on the field, they got two defensive TDs w/ under 8:30 to play & then they tacked on a TD w/ 30 seconds left to make the score somewhat close.  Cortland wiped them off the field and that was the NEFC rep.

C. What on gods green earth does Maine Maritime & Montclair have to do with anything I said?

Maine Maritime was the NEFC rep in 2009 and they played Montclair.
The NEFC rep in 2008 WON a playoff game.

No, the NEFC Pool C rep in 2008 won.  The Pool A rep did not.  (Curry beat Ithaca; Cortland beat Plymouth St.)

My bad, but a Pool C from that horrific conference won. That better illustrates my point, I think.

Excluding these conferences denies them a right to improve - to stack up on how they are against the elite.

I can tell you from first hand experience, when Wabash played Mt. Union in 2002, that was an eye-opening. To compete with them on the field was program-changing.

[DanPadavona]

Instead of trying to compete in a league that's not a good fit for us athletically, we can play some schools that are a better fit, football-wise, since we're at somewhat of a disadvantage because of the type of school we are.

All this time you have been arguing against my point that Norwich left a conference they could not compete in, because they wanted to go to a weak conference where they could win. And then you write this. Amazing.

[smedindy]

Instead of trying to compete in a league that's not a good fit for us athletically, we can play some schools that are a better fit, football-wise, since we're at somewhat of a disadvantage because of the type of school we are.

All this time you have been arguing against my point that Norwich left a conference they could not compete in, because they wanted to go to a weak conference where they could win. And then you write this. Amazing.

No, you were arguing that Norwich left simply to make the playoffs. Your point was that the ECFC gamed the system and that the conference shouldn't be in the playoffs and Norwich left SOLELY to make the playoffs.

That's a HUGE difference.

Norwich left the E8. But they had no ties to the E8 except that's where they played football.

[DanPadavona]

So. What.

Very mature response. So what? The NCAA playoff record and margin of victory was quoted because you made a big issue out of a Pool C NEFC team winning a game. So what? They are 1-13 outside of games which you cherry picked, that's why.

No, you were arguing that Norwich left simply to make the playoffs. Your point was that the ECFC gamed the system and that the conference shouldn't be in the playoffs and Norwich left SOLELY to make the playoffs.

What part of going to a conference where they can be competitive, and going to a conference which has an auto bid to the playoffs, is confusing you?

[FCGrizzliesGrad]

Norwich is traveling from Vermont to DC to play Gallaudet because it is a better fit for them? And not taking the much shorter trip to Utica and Ithaca, which are both highly regarded institutions.

First, every team besides Norwich was either an independent or didn't have a team before the ECAC started and Norwich had been in a conference that ceased to exist a few years earlier. Second, Gallaudet is the outlier in the conference not Norwich. The rest are all close to Norwich.

[smedindy]

So. What.

Very mature response. So what? The NCAA playoff record and margin of victory was quoted because you made a big issue out of a Pool C NEFC team winning a game. So what? They are 1-13 outside of games which you cherry picked, that's why.

No, you were arguing that Norwich left simply to make the playoffs. Your point was that the ECFC gamed the system and that the conference shouldn't be in the playoffs and Norwich left SOLELY to make the playoffs.

What part of going to a conference where they can be competitive, and going to a conference which has an auto bid to the playoffs, is confusing you?

Competitive does not equal "we will win this every year". Competitive means "we can play competitive games and not have a huge disadvantage against everyone we play against".

The auto bid is and always will be secondary. The ECFC allows these schools to play competitive games against schools which support football, are in the same logical area, and are in conferences that don't support football. The same for Norwich goes for Mt. Ida, SUNY - Maritime and the rest. To pile on Norwich is wrong.

[DanPadavona]

Dude, I piled on the entire ECFC. Not just Norwich. The only reason they are in the playoffs is because of the 7-team conference rule, which completely disregards the quality of the competition within the conference. You like things that way, fine. Most posters who follow eastern region football consider the ECFC to be a bad joke, and would rather not want to see a team completely in over their heads get beat up in the first round.

They aren't ready to compete on a playoff level. Convincing losses to Hartwick and St Lawrence are all the proof I need of that statement.

[Frank Rossi]

My bad, but a Pool C from that horrific conference won. That better illustrates my point, I think.

Excluding these conferences denies them a right to improve - to stack up on how they are against the elite.

I can tell you from first hand experience, when Wabash played Mt. Union in 2002, that was an eye-opening. To compete with them on the field was program-changing.

They have the right to improve:  BY SCHEDULING TEAMS OTHER THAN NEFC TEAMS.  Salve Regina would've earned a Pool C bid with their leaps in scheduling (Union and Montclair).  I hope they eventually get rewarded for transcending the mediocrity that the rest of the conference seems to be comfortable maintaining.  Endicott played no teams outside the NEFC.  It helps artificially inflate SOS numbers when this happens -- and they benefit from their game with the NEFC Championship participant since that game guarantees a higher OOWP.  It's a multi-stacked deck in the NEFC.

I think we forget that Pool A grants teams and conferences the access we discuss.  It's Pool C that is supposed to reward the best that didn't make Pool A.  If a conference refuses to test itself during the regular season, why are we rewarding them with a coveted extra playoff slot -- they already get one automatically.

[smedindy]

The unintended consequences of your statement affects many other conferences and it affects many programs. Saying the ECFC shouldn't exist is almost tantamount to saying those schools shouldn't play football. In this day and age, where young men aren't going to college in the numbers they used to, and a football program may be one lure for them to go to college, why are you denigrating this? The same could be said of the UMAC or NATHC. The MWC has struggled in the playoffs, too. Should we keep THEM out because they don't meet some artificial standard?

I can't see how an ECFC rep being in the playoffs makes it tarnished. Next up in the mix if Norwich doesn't exist is Illinois College - which is probably cannon fodder for St. Thomas or Whitewater.

[DanPadavona]

They have the right to improve:  BY SCHEDULING TEAMS OTHER THAN NEFC TEAMS.  Salve Regina would've earned a Pool C bid with their leaps in scheduling (Union and Montclair).  I hope they eventually get rewarded for transcending the mediocrity that the rest of the conference seems to be comfortable maintaining.  Endicott played no teams outside the NEFC.  It helps artificially inflate SOS numbers when this happens -- and they benefit from their game with the NEFC Championship participant since that game guarantees a higher OOWP.  It's a multi-stacked deck in the NEFC.

To take this statement an additional step, Endicott scheduled RPI every season from 2004 to 2010 and lost all 7 games. So they have never won an NCAA playoff game, and they dropped a mid pack Liberty League team who beat them every season for 7 consecutive years. And they are likely going to get an at-large bid to the playoffs because they are 9-1. Makes sense to me?

[smedindy]

My bad, but a Pool C from that horrific conference won. That better illustrates my point, I think.

Excluding these conferences denies them a right to improve - to stack up on how they are against the elite.

I can tell you from first hand experience, when Wabash played Mt. Union in 2002, that was an eye-opening. To compete with them on the field was program-changing.

They have the right to improve:  BY SCHEDULING TEAMS OTHER THAN NEFC TEAMS.  Salve Regina would've earned a Pool C bid with their leaps in scheduling (Union and Montclair).  I hope they eventually get rewarded for transcending the mediocrity that the rest of the conference seems to be comfortable maintaining.  Endicott played no teams outside the NEFC.  It helps artificially inflate SOS numbers when this happens -- and they benefit from their game with the NEFC Championship participant since that game guarantees a higher OOWP.  It's a multi-stacked deck in the NEFC.

I think we forget that Pool A grants teams and conferences the access we discuss.  It's Pool C that is supposed to reward the best that didn't make Pool A.  If a conference refuses to test itself during the regular season, why are we rewarding them with a coveted extra playoff slot -- they already get one automatically.

People complain about the SOS numbers of the NESCAC in hoops, because they stay in-region and mop up on the other teams around them and only have one conference game. It works both ways.

And really, if you are complaining about Endicott being a Pool C, then you shouldn't have lost that second game. Wheaton shouldn't have lost to IWU. Baldwin-Wallace shouldn't have lost to Capital. St. Olaf shouldn't have lost to St. John's. Period.

[Pat Coleman]

And Illinois College shouldn't have ... what?

Enjoying this argument. Haven't weighed in because I can see both sides of the discussion. I would be in favor of a longer probationary period for new single-sport conferences.

[smedindy]

They have the right to improve:  BY SCHEDULING TEAMS OTHER THAN NEFC TEAMS.  Salve Regina would've earned a Pool C bid with their leaps in scheduling (Union and Montclair).  I hope they eventually get rewarded for transcending the mediocrity that the rest of the conference seems to be comfortable maintaining.  Endicott played no teams outside the NEFC.  It helps artificially inflate SOS numbers when this happens -- and they benefit from their game with the NEFC Championship participant since that game guarantees a higher OOWP.  It's a multi-stacked deck in the NEFC.

To take this statement an additional step, Endicott scheduled RPI every season from 2004 to 2010 and lost all 7 games. So they have never won an NCAA playoff game, and they dropped a mid pack Liberty League team who beat them every season for 7 consecutive years. And they are likely going to get an at-large bid to the playoffs because they are 9-1. Makes sense to me?

Yes, it does. They didn't lose a second game. Everyone knows the implications when they start the season. Don't have two losses and expect a "C".

What Endicott did in 2004 means nothing now. Nothing. What Endicott did in 2010 means nothing to 2011.

[DanPadavona]

The unintended consequences of your statement affects many other conferences and it affects many programs. Saying the ECFC shouldn't exist is almost tantamount to saying those schools shouldn't play football.

Never said the ECFC shouldn't exist. I stated there should be some accreditation required for a 7 team conference getting an automatic bid to the playoffs. Something a little more strenuous than saying, "There are 7 of us. Let us in."

I don't understand what is wrong with asking a conference formed with teams with no recent success on the field of any kind, to prove their worth in the playoffs before being awarded an automatic bid into the playoffs. Give them a Pool B bid. That forces them to play out of conference competition during the season to prove their playoff worthiness.

That means Norwich doesn't make it in 2011 because Hartwick and St Lawrence both beat them convincingly. It also means SUNY Maritime doesn't make it in 2010 because they too avoided any strong competition out of conference.

If they beat good teams during the season, they get a Pool B. If they win as a Pool B, the conference gets a Pool A.

[smedindy]

And Illinois College shouldn't have ... what?

Lost, I guess. At least there's only one loss team on the sidelines this year. I can't say the NCAA criteria is flawless (I really don't like it) but at least the message is clear. A 2-loss team doesn't have an argument, whilst a 1-loss team can come to the debate table.

Enjoying this argument. Haven't weighed in because I can see both sides of the discussion. I would be in favor of a longer probationary period for new single-sport conferences.

I'm not disagreeing with that, Pat. But at some point the ECFC should be allowed a bid. And if its three years from now some would still have the same argument against their inclusion.