Pool C -- 2011

[jknezek]

jk, i like it.  makes for some real interesting 2nd round match ups.

I certainly don't have a problem with it. While everyone on here is going to argue about the 33 or 34th team, I find this new playoff arrangement a massively more interesting change. I'll wait until the real experts chime in, but this seems like a very radical departure from what we have seen in the past. Like I said, a real statement by the committee.

[smedindy]

Pretty sure we can officially kill all talk of "regions" at this point. I think the committee is making a statement here that they will build around the best teams. There truly is no more "North" "South" "East" or "West" come playoff time. I know this has been happening for years, but the way they drew up regional 4 team pods instead of 8 team groupings really drives that point home for me. No more complaining about one region not getting a regional 1. From this point forward you are really going to try and host your pod. After that, you need to be one of the 4 best in the country. I'm sure this will lead to a whole new series of debates in the future...

Debates such as...

Why not just "count" every D3 vs D3 game?  The more the bracket is national, the stranger it seems to me to exclude certain D3 vs D3 games.

I would be in favor of this, because it's obvious football only gives lip service to regional records (well some committees only give lip service). But I don't think the NCAA will stop the regional emphasis in other sports, so football may just have a wink and a nod to do otherwise.

[Titan Q]

Like I said, a better system would be able to judge IC regardless of who they played.  You can play Millikin, but you also should compare that result with how Wheaton played Millikin. 

But that gets a little dicey, no? 

- Illinois Wesleyan beat Millikin by 3
- Illinois College beat Millikin by 4
- Wheaton beat Millikin by 20
- Illinois Wesleyan beat Wheaton by 5


Hard to make sense of all of that.  It's kind of hard to play that comparison game at times.

I'm not saying there is no value to it...but we all know that is not a perfect science.

[Mugsy]

Like I said, a better system would be able to judge IC regardless of who they played.  You can play Millikin, but you also should compare that result with how Wheaton played Millikin. 

But that gets a little dicey, no? 

- Illinois Wesleyan beat Millikin by 3
- Illinois College beat Millikin by 4
- Wheaton beat Millikin by 20
- Illinois Wesleyan beat Wheaton by 5


Hard to make sense of all of that.  It's kind of hard to play that comparison game at times.

First I say... absolutely true.  It is extremely difficult to read too much into this mess.

The only thing I would say is the IC win over Millikin was very early in the year.  IWU's win over Wheaton was in week 4.  IWU's squeeker over Millikin was late in the year (Millikin had a 4th and 3 at IWU 21 with under 2 minutes remaining and chose to go for it instead of kicking a potential tying FG). Wheaton's easy win over Millikin was the last week.  Factor in IWU's close victory over Carthage, where Wheaton completely demolished Carthage a week or two earlier, one could infer Wheaton was playing better and finished the season off as a stronger team?

That said... doesn't matter.  Wheaton had 2 loses, IWU had only 1.

[Titan Q]

Like I said, a better system would be able to judge IC regardless of who they played.  You can play Millikin, but you also should compare that result with how Wheaton played Millikin. 

But that gets a little dicey, no? 

- Illinois Wesleyan beat Millikin by 3
- Illinois College beat Millikin by 4
- Wheaton beat Millikin by 20
- Illinois Wesleyan beat Wheaton by 5


Hard to make sense of all of that.  It's kind of hard to play that comparison game at times.

First I say... absolutely true.  It is extremely difficult to read too much into this mess.

The only thing I would say is the IC win over Millikin was very early in the year.  IWU's win over Wheaton was in week 4.  IWU's squeeker over Millikin was late in the year (Millikin had a 4th and 3 at IWU 21 with under 2 minutes remaining and chose to go for it instead of kicking a potential tying FG). Wheaton's easy win over Millikin was the last week.  Factor in IWU's close victory over Carthage, where Wheaton completely demolished Carthage a week or two earlier, one could infer Wheaton was playing better and finished the season off as a stronger team?

That said... doesn't matter.  Wheaton had 2 loses, IWU had only 1.

Mugsy, I don't think the discussion is about Wheaton vs IWU.  There is a head-to-head result there.  I don't think there is much doubt Wheaton was playing better at the end of the year than IWU, but once IWU beat Wheaton, that pretty much settled the IWU/WC Pool C pecking order (unless Wheaton had knocked off NCC, of course).

This discussion (and my point about comparative scores getting dicey) is really just about Illinois College vs Wheaton.  I think it is pretty tough to evaluate IC and WC using just that common opponent (the Big Blue).

And of course the reality is that I doubt Illinois College and Wheaton were ever evaluated vs each other.  Seems like Case was probably the North team on the table at the end.  (And this is what is frustrating about the process - I think if at the table, Wheaton has a great chance to get in over Illinois College and/or SJF.)

[smedindy]

Well, it's moot because they're in different regions.

SJF jumped Endicott. IWU jumped Case but Wheaton did not. The choice was probably IC / Endicott / Case / Birmingham Southern for the final bid. Wheaton never got to the table, and if they did they probably would have been selected over IC, given the choice of SJF.

Of course that's just speculation.

[Pat Coleman]

Pretty sure we can officially kill all talk of "regions" at this point. I think the committee is making a statement here that they will build around the best teams. There truly is no more "North" "South" "East" or "West" come playoff time. I know this has been happening for years, but the way they drew up regional 4 team pods instead of 8 team groupings really drives that point home for me. No more complaining about one region not getting a regional 1. From this point forward you are really going to try and host your pod. After that, you need to be one of the 4 best in the country. I'm sure this will lead to a whole new series of debates in the future...

Debates such as...

Why not just "count" every D3 vs D3 game?  The more the bracket is national, the stranger it seems to me to exclude certain D3 vs D3 games.

I think that in football they basically do, because there are so few games.

[Pat Coleman]

Case's exclusion screams this. But we knew this from previous years, too.

[Mugsy]

Like I said, a better system would be able to judge IC regardless of who they played.  You can play Millikin, but you also should compare that result with how Wheaton played Millikin. 

But that gets a little dicey, no? 

- Illinois Wesleyan beat Millikin by 3
- Illinois College beat Millikin by 4
- Wheaton beat Millikin by 20
- Illinois Wesleyan beat Wheaton by 5


Hard to make sense of all of that.  It's kind of hard to play that comparison game at times.

First I say... absolutely true.  It is extremely difficult to read too much into this mess.

The only thing I would say is the IC win over Millikin was very early in the year.  IWU's win over Wheaton was in week 4.  IWU's squeeker over Millikin was late in the year (Millikin had a 4th and 3 at IWU 21 with under 2 minutes remaining and chose to go for it instead of kicking a potential tying FG). Wheaton's easy win over Millikin was the last week.  Factor in IWU's close victory over Carthage, where Wheaton completely demolished Carthage a week or two earlier, one could infer Wheaton was playing better and finished the season off as a stronger team?

That said... doesn't matter.  Wheaton had 2 loses, IWU had only 1.

Mugsy, I don't think the discussion is about Wheaton vs IWU.  There is a head-to-head result there.  I don't think there is much doubt Wheaton was playing better at the end of the year than IWU, but once IWU beat Wheaton, that pretty much settled the IWU/WC Pool C pecking order (unless Wheaton had knocked off NCC, of course).

This discussion (and my point about comparative scores getting dicey) is really just about Illinois College vs Wheaton.  I think it is pretty tough to evaluate IC and WC using just that common opponent (the Big Blue).

And of course the reality is that I doubt Illinois College and Wheaton were ever evaluated vs each other.  Seems like Case was probably the North team on the table at the end.  (And this is what is frustrating about the process - I think if at the table, Wheaton has a great chance to get in over Illinois College and/or SJF.)

Ah... gothca Q.  I see the subtle difference in context. When 3 kids under 7 are jumping all over me as I try to interpret the brackets, misinterpretation can occur.    

As both you and I noted, the key issue for Wheaton was the loss to IWU earlier in the year.  That basically sealed the deal for Wheaton.

[bashbrother]

#1 Seeds as stated by Committee Chairman

1. UWW
2. Mount Union
3. MHB
4. Delaware Valley

[smedindy]

So the national committee doesn't tweak the regional rankings, yet they make it a national tournament with their pod system.

Hmmmm....

[Ralph Turner]

Round #1  9 inter-region games

East Region hosting

CNU (S) at Kean

South Region hosting

Hobart (E) at Wesley
SJF (E) at JHU
Redlands (W) at UMHB

North Region hosting

Thomas More (S) at Franklin
Monmouth (W) at IWU
Dubuque (W) at North Central
Illinois College (W) at Wabash

West Region hosting

Albion (N) at UWW

[wesleydad]

i think this is great, the 2nd round games will be much tougher than usual and with so many different match ups from year past much more fun.  i look forward to hobart and then the potential match up with linfield and then maybe umhb or mcmurray.  will be fun.

[smedindy]

Those North Region out of region games make a lot of sense for a regular non-conference game. Not a long drive and good competition.

[FCGrizzliesGrad]

#1 Seeds as stated by Committee Chairman

1. UWW
2. Mount Union
3. MHB
4. Delaware Valley

Here's the best guess I have as to seeds with Pool C in bold. The MHB bracket is still screwy but it's the best I could come up with at least until the two halves play in the quarterfinals

1 UW-Whitewater (10-0)                1 Mary Hardin-Baylor (10-0)
8 Albion (6-4)                        7 Redlands (8-1)
4 Franklin (9-1)                      3 Trinity, Texas (10-0)
5 Thomas More (9-1)                   5 McMurry (8-2)
3 Kean (9-1)                          2 Linfield (9-0)
6 Christopher Newport (8-2)           6 Cal Lutheran (8-1)
2 Salisbury (9-1)                     4 Wesley (9-1)
7 Western New England (10-1)          8 Hobart (7-1)

2 St. Thomas (10-0)                   2 Wabash (10-0)
7 St. Scholastica (10-0)              7 Illinois College (9-1)
3 Illinois Wesleyan (9-1)          3 North Central (9-1)
6 Monmouth (9-1)                      6 Dubuque (9-1)
4 Johns Hopkins (10-0)                4 Centre (8-1)
5 St. John Fisher (8-2)            5 Hampden-Sydney (8-2)
1 Delaware Valley (10-0)              1 Mount Union (10-0)
8 Norwich (7-3)                       8 Benedictine (7-3)