Are the Purple Powers bad for D3?

[02 Warhawk]

As a West Coast fan, I want to reiterate the common argument that West Coast teams get screwed out of the playoffs every year. Because the selection committe will almost automatically pass up at large bids anywhere west of Minnesota, teams rarely even having a chance to compete in the playoffs unless they're Linfield (who routinely wins conference on an incredibly easy 10-game schedule). But that isn't really the point, more just highlighting the "unlevel playing field" for teams to even have a shot at the playoffs, where I'd venture to say many West coast teams are more deserving than the east coast counterparts they get shafted for.

I've always wondered if UW-W and Mount Union had ever considered a move to either NAIA or Division II. I know size of school is the ultimate deciding factor, but if they really have no competition other than each other at this level, why not go seek bigger fish? They'd have a chance for scholarships, more exposure, etc. Look at European soccer, where the whole idea is to keep moving up divisions. I would hate to think two programs with the traditions like UW-W and Mount Union are complacent crushing teams at the D3 level. Look at University of Sioux Falls, who was destroying any and all competition at the NAIA level. They moved up to DII. Why can't the purple powers do the same, or why don't they want to?

Their entire athletics program would need to move - and their entire athletics program at UW-W and Mt. Union fit into their conferences and D-3.

Again, this is not D-1. You make decisions based on ALL sports, not just football.

Wisconsin-Whitewater's athletic program
Football- 7 straight Stagg Bowls
Basketball- #16 in the nation
Baseball- lost in world series,ended ranked 3rd
Men's Soccer- Lost in first round of NCAA's
Wrestling- 18th in nation
Women's soccer- Lost in 3rd round of NCAA's
Softball-Lost in NCAA regionals
Women's Volleyball- Lost in NCAA regionals.

I think they have a good enough program overal to be D-2.

Who's forking over the $$$ for these scholarships? The state of Wisconsin? Who happens to be in the process of cutting back funding to its public schools to balance the 2012 budget? I don't think so....

Look back to what HScoach just posted on this thread....I couldn't of said it better.

[bleedpurple]

Wisconsin-Whitewater's athletic program
Football- 7 straight Stagg Bowls
Basketball- #16 in the nation
Baseball- lost in world series,ended ranked 3rd
Men's Soccer- Lost in first round of NCAA's
Wrestling- 18th in nation
Women's soccer- Lost in 3rd round of NCAA's
Softball-Lost in NCAA regionals
Women's Volleyball- Lost in NCAA regionals.

I think they have a good enough program overal to be D-2.

I don't think it's a matter of quality, I think it is a matter of philosophy.  UW-W is a D3 school and has a vision and values that embraces the D3 philosophy. Philosophical alignment of an institution with a particular division is (and should be) the ultimate determiner as to which division it belongs to. UW-W has no interest in changing divisions.  They are providing excellent experiences for their student athletes within the philosophy of D3. And when I say that, I am talking about FAR more than national championships.  Athletes at both UW-W and other fine D3 institutions know exactly what I'm talking about. As much as players love to win (what athlete wouldn't?), at the end of the day it's the relationships and the character forming experiences that the athlete wouldn't give up for the world (or even for a BCS title!). 

[jknezek]

I don't think it's a matter of quality, I think it is a matter of philosophy.  UW-W is a D3 school and has a vision and values that embraces the D3 philosophy. Philosophical alignment of an institution with a particular division is (and should be) the ultimate determiner as to which division it belongs to. UW-W has no interest in changing divisions.  They are providing excellent experiences for their student athletes within the philosophy of D3. And when I say that, I am talking about FAR more than national championships.  Athletes at both UW-W and other fine D3 institutions know exactly what I'm talking about. As much as players love to win (what athlete wouldn't?), at the end of the day it's the relationships and the character forming experiences that the athlete wouldn't give up for the world (or even for a BCS title!).

In this we are complete agreement. I think the WIAC and parts of the NJAC look and smell suspiciously like D2 schools, but they compete by D3 rules. While I chuckled at the poster who took this route:

"The playing field itself is entirely level as are the hours in a day available to all."

D3 is a choice to compete by a set of rules that have nothing to do with success, school size, public or private or any number of other variables. The fact that the WIAC as a whole would face similar conferences, non-flagship public institutions, much more commonly in D2 or even FCS, that doesn't mean they should move there. It just means they are a bit of an outlier among other D3 schools. But nothing in the rules suggests there is anything wrong with being an outlier and there plenty of smaller, liberal arts/regional college type schools that compete in levels other than D3.

Divisional affiliation in the NCAA is by choice, and the WIAC chooses D3, plays by D3 rules, and should be welcome there until a) the rules are changed (unlikely given the outcome of the D4 study) or b) they do something to break them, just like any other D3 institution.

[DGPugh]

D-2 we are gonna have to agree to disagree, about 'Moving up (or i think down), yall are talking about D-2 or NAIA as if that is a step up.... i think it is down. I know little of other states, but in the one where i live we have 2- NAIA football programs, 5 D-2 football programs. We looked at em, after visits the boy decided on a D-3 ( and we were proud, but it took us off guard). the D-2 / NAIA in this state are a step down from an academic standpoint.

the whole point of this should be education.... don't laugh..please

udubdub and mount are gonna both get replaced... just like others before them. in 2004 neither was in the stagg (ROOCRU was there and his son was on the field). the worm will turn, it always does, but probably by other purple people

next year Wesley vs ?... 
keep the faith

[AO]

Moving to d1 or d2 doesn't mean your academic programs are suddenly terrible or that you're stealing money from orphans to pay for the scholarships.  Maybe Mount or UWW would switch divisions in certain sports if allowed to.  Either could probably fare pretty well in the fcs non-scholarship pioneer league if they didn't want to do the scholarships but still wanted to move up and find more consistent competition.  Might be nice for the whole program if the football team could get a payday in camp randall or the horseshoe.-----There are teams out there who would give our d3 purple powers a better test, why not play them?

[smedindy]

AO -

Who will pay for that? Who? Who? Who? Who? Who?

It won't be the Walker regime for sure!

[Mr. Ypsi]

Re: UWW and d2

My strong impression is that the WIAC is now a very settled conference, and no one is likely to move unless they all do.  (Am I correct that UW-Milwaukee was once a WSUC [the forerunner of the WIAC] member, but is the last one to leave?  Was UW-Parkside ever a member?)  If so, in assessing the possibilities of UWW competing (in ALL sports) in d2, you'd better also consider all the other WIAC schools.

Between their dedication to the d3 philosophy and the penuriousness of the Wisconsin legislature (their budgets are going DOWN, not up to scholarship standards), I'd judge it EXTREMELY unlikely that the WIAC (or any member thereof) is going anywhere in the foreseeable future.

Since I'm an interested outsider, corrections from any WIAC posters are welcomed.

[zach]

As a West Coast fan, I want to reiterate the common argument that West Coast teams get screwed out of the playoffs every year. Because the selection committe will almost automatically pass up at large bids anywhere west of Minnesota, teams rarely even having a chance to compete in the playoffs unless they're Linfield (who routinely wins conference on an incredibly easy 10-game schedule). But that isn't really the point, more just highlighting the "unlevel playing field" for teams to even have a shot at the playoffs, where I'd venture to say many West coast teams are more deserving than the east coast counterparts they get shafted for.

I've always wondered if UW-W and Mount Union had ever considered a move to either NAIA or Division II. I know size of school is the ultimate deciding factor, but if they really have no competition other than each other at this level, why not go seek bigger fish? They'd have a chance for scholarships, more exposure, etc. Look at European soccer, where the whole idea is to keep moving up divisions. I would hate to think two programs with the traditions like UW-W and Mount Union are complacent crushing teams at the D3 level. Look at University of Sioux Falls, who was destroying any and all competition at the NAIA level. They moved up to DII. Why can't the purple powers do the same, or why don't they want to?

Their entire athletics program would need to move - and their entire athletics program at UW-W and Mt. Union fit into their conferences and D-3.

Again, this is not D-1. You make decisions based on ALL sports, not just football.

Wisconsin-Whitewater's athletic program
Football- 7 straight Stagg Bowls
Basketball- #16 in the nation
Baseball- lost in world series,ended ranked 3rd
Men's Soccer- Lost in first round of NCAA's
Wrestling- 18th in nation
Women's soccer- Lost in 3rd round of NCAA's
Softball-Lost in NCAA regionals
Women's Volleyball- Lost in NCAA regionals.

I think they have a good enough program overal to be D-2.

Who's forking over the $$$ for these scholarships? The state of Wisconsin? Who happens to be in the process of cutting back funding to its public schools to balance the 2012 budget? I don't think so....

Look back to what HScoach just posted on this thread....I couldn't of said it better.

I don't have the exact numbers on me, but I'm going to assume that to be D-2, the school would have to offer 250 scholarships to be D-2, and that number is probably high. Assuming all students are out of staters that would recieve no need or merit based aid, that would cost the school $4,750,000. That number will probably be much less since this is a maximum based number.  Divide that by the 10,000 students there and that is a $475 tution increase per student.  The chance to move up a division and be one division away from D-1 would be worth the $475 increase in tution to most students. Not to mention the fact that there is more money to be made in D-2 than there is in D-3. Raising up a division is not as much as some of you are making it sound.

[Mr. Ypsi]

May I suggest that your third from the last sentence is absolutely risible - the 'majority' of students couldn't care less what division they play in (apparently WAY less than half of them ever even attend games), but sure would care about almost $500!   The thought of student riots in 'beautiful downtown Whitewater' makes my skin crawl!

I also have serious doubts about the vast riches to be won in d2.

[zach]

May I suggest that your third from the last sentence is absolutely risible - the 'majority' of students couldn't care less what division they play in (apparently WAY less than half of them ever even attend games), but sure would care about almost $500!   The thought of student riots in 'beautiful downtown Whitewater' makes my skin crawl!

I also have serious doubts about the vast riches to be won in d2.

$475 is nothing when compared to the cost of college. It would be a 2.5% increase in tution. Small stuff.  I think they can spare an extra $475. Once again, that is a max. number. I took a look at the football and basketball roster for Wisconsin-whitewater. 68.75% of the athletes are from in state. Assuming that they keep with that ratio the actual cost of providing scholarships for 250 athletes would be $3,265,625. Divide that by the 10,000 students attending Wisconsin-Whitewater and the tution raise would only be $326.56. The median of those two numbers is $400. I would estimate that as being the cost per student to go to D-2. Although the number could be lower. Once again going from D-3 to D-2 would not be the extremely costly thing for a school of 10,000 students as some of you are trying to make it sound like. And the school would actuallly be on the same level as their opponents instead of a clear level above like they are now.
The money in D-2 compared to D-3 is slim, but it brings them one closer to D-1 where there is money to be made.

[emma17]

As a West Coast fan, I want to reiterate the common argument that West Coast teams get screwed out of the playoffs every year. Because the selection committe will almost automatically pass up at large bids anywhere west of Minnesota, teams rarely even having a chance to compete in the playoffs unless they're Linfield (who routinely wins conference on an incredibly easy 10-game schedule). But that isn't really the point, more just highlighting the "unlevel playing field" for teams to even have a shot at the playoffs, where I'd venture to say many West coast teams are more deserving than the east coast counterparts they get shafted for.

I've always wondered if UW-W and Mount Union had ever considered a move to either NAIA or Division II. I know size of school is the ultimate deciding factor, but if they really have no competition other than each other at this level, why not go seek bigger fish? They'd have a chance for scholarships, more exposure, etc. Look at European soccer, where the whole idea is to keep moving up divisions. I would hate to think two programs with the traditions like UW-W and Mount Union are complacent crushing teams at the D3 level. Look at University of Sioux Falls, who was destroying any and all competition at the NAIA level. They moved up to DII. Why can't the purple powers do the same, or why don't they want to?

Their entire athletics program would need to move - and their entire athletics program at UW-W and Mt. Union fit into their conferences and D-3.

Again, this is not D-1. You make decisions based on ALL sports, not just football.

Wisconsin-Whitewater's athletic program
Football- 7 straight Stagg Bowls
Basketball- #16 in the nation
Baseball- lost in world series,ended ranked 3rd
Men's Soccer- Lost in first round of NCAA's
Wrestling- 18th in nation
Women's soccer- Lost in 3rd round of NCAA's
Softball-Lost in NCAA regionals
Women's Volleyball- Lost in NCAA regionals.

I think they have a good enough program overal to be D-2.

Nice job UWW- success breeds success. Let's get some more championships.

[AO]

AO -

Who will pay for that? Who? Who? Who? Who? Who?

It won't be the Walker regime for sure!

Is there an owl in here?   

Remember, I would like to live in a world without title IX.  Where if UW-Whitewater wanted to play a division 1 schedule in football only and give full rides to 60 football players and no one else, it could do so.   Even if home attendance doesn't increase much, you could pay for the scholarships by playing at a bcs school where guarantees of a million are not uncommon. 

[frank uible]

Football libertarianism.

[smedindy]

Title IX is necessary and vital. My daughters deserve athletics just as much as I did and there will be some chuckleheads who would deny them that right because their views are stuck way in the past.

Again, people need to keep the entire athletics program in mind. Those D-1 BCS guarantee games are horrid for the sport itself. It does help the coffers but at what cost?

[purpled]

To end all the arguments we should do what DI does and have a BSC type championship...wouldn't that end all this? We can use a computer (can't beat modern technology, right?), let some coaches and media type people (no offense) vote and then like magic you'll have two teams play for the title. Who needs the excitement of a playoff system and 32 teams all having a chance to win it all. How fricking boring could that be, eh?