Are the Purple Powers bad for D3?

[middlerelief]

No - it is not good for the sport - But it is up to the other programs out there to change it given that D3 offers the championship to be settled on the field via a playoff (unlike the SEC fatigue'd BCS system).

My Scrutiny starts local first then expands. As in the conferences - The other programs in the WIAC, the OAC, and the ASC (MHB) frankly should be embarassed that they cannot produce a different conf. champ over the last 7 to 15 years.  A conference should be competitive, and the teams that play in that conference should be able to figure out how to one up one another season to seaon via recruiting, facilities, etc. because they see them every year. A program goes on a hot run sure, but it should not be penciled in as a given who wins that conference and be challenged for that AQ. Not a single program in those three conferences appears to be able to do that. Examples of "Good" conferences because they compete and seem to rotate champs would  be: the MIAC and the E8.

2nd level of scruitiny goes to the regional level - if UWW can figure out how to get past MUC, then other programs should be able to solve the code as well. Be it investment in facilities or 2nd level recruiting to nab D1 drop downs, or more experienced coaching or whatever the ingredients are - 2 programs have figured it out - now it is time for a third.

Who that third program could potentially be? My guess: Wesley, Linfield, Bethel, St. Thomas, Salisbury, St. John Fisher

[Pat Coleman]

AO once complained that we put women's basketball on the front page of D3hoops.com. Let's keep the Title IX discussions somewhere else and stay focused here, since we are linking to this conversation from the D3football.com front page.

[D O.C.]

Fair enough.
I'll restate that I vote NO.
It is not that I resigned to the 7th CONSECUTIVE MEETING, yet somehow I looked forward to this year's game.
I was a neutral observer.
I was in awe of the speed, size and depth of the two heavyweights.

[AO]

AO once complained that we put women's basketball on the front page of D3hoops.com. Let's keep the Title IX discussions somewhere else and stay focused here, since we are linking to this conversation from the D3football.com front page.

Just my personal opinion that the headlines were rather confusing as it takes some effort to discern whether you're talking about the men's team or the women's team.  More of a design issue, rather than complaining that the women were covered.

---as to the title IX discussion belonging elsewhere, if an apparently large number of d3 fans think the purple powers are bad for D3 I find it highly relevant to discuss the reasons why a move to another division is made difficult.  Would you also move the discussion concerning the rule that prevents just one team from playing in a different division unless your program happened to be grandfathered in?

I consider the purple powers to be good for D3, but if the UWW and Mount administrators could have moved up a division more easily, people of all views would probably be pretty happy.

[Mr. Ypsi]

AO once complained that we put women's basketball on the front page of D3hoops.com. Let's keep the Title IX discussions somewhere else and stay focused here, since we are linking to this conversation from the D3football.com front page.

Just my personal opinion that the headlines were rather confusing as it takes some effort to discern whether you're talking about the men's team or the women's team.  More of a design issue, rather than complaining that the women were covered.

---as to the title IX discussion belonging elsewhere, if an apparently large number of d3 fans think the purple powers are bad for D3 I find it highly relevant to discuss the reasons why a move to another division is made difficult.  Would you also move the discussion concerning the rule that prevents just one team from playing in a different division unless your program happened to be grandfathered in?

I consider the purple powers to be good for D3, but if the UWW and Mount administrators could have moved up a division more easily, people of all views would probably be pretty happy.

AO, anyone can start a new topic at any time.  If you would like to start a thread about teams being able to play any level they want (rather than whole programs having to move up or down), feel free.  I am going to start a Title IX thread right after I hit 'post'.

[GoHop]

Jknezik- in the context of my post, the sentence  "The playing field itself is entirely level as are the hours in a day available to all" is meant from the player's perspective. IMO D III football players aren't thinking "UWW v Mt is unfair/ bad for DIII". IMO, the players especially that watch the two teams play or play against them are motivated by them. To the competing player, there is nothing "un-level" about the game.

In truth, I think time will prove this entire discussion was an over reaction to a special moment in time. I'm convinced the UWW v Mt battle will raise the level of play to a broad number of schools and result in even greater variety of championship caliber teams in the near future.

Perhaps. I remember a friend of mine in school who played on the offensive line. We spent a lot of years getting beat by the same team every year. One year he came back from losing the game and told me he had to line up against a kid he played with in h.s. Said the kid could barely stay academically eligible in h.s. and had missed his senior season because he hadn't passed enough classes as a junior. Was kind of amazed that some college found a way to get him on the field and thought it was a complete joke that he lined up against him. Was pretty vocal that he thought there was no way a kid like that could have gotten into college.

While I don't remember him saying it was unfair, I'm pretty sure he thought it was, at a minimum, completely ridiculous that somehow that kid found a way to play college ball. The differing standards between teams in D3 leads to a lot of unlevel playing fields, and the players at a lot of schools know it.

That's just one example. I have no doubt that the kid was within the rules to play. I don't think any team cheated to get him out there and it is just an example of D3's diversity. But there is no way I will ever believe that the D3 landscape is, in any meaningful form, level...

I agree that the field isn't level, but I don't think that matters to the players. My son was on the Hopkins team when they made it to the third round of the playoffs in 2009, a first for Hopkins. They played Wesley in that game in a sleet/snow/rain storm and lost a close game. Even though every player on the team knew that Wesley had some former D-1 players on the team as well as some players that were significantly older than the Hopkins players and never could have gotten into Hopkins academically, the Hopkins players were not intimidated and did not believe that they were in over their heads (the coaches might have been another story). From what I've learned from my son, the players don't care about school size or academics, they want to win and show that they can beat the best teams. I don't think it would be any fun if there wasn't a challenge or ultimate test for the conference champs. The purple teams are on the top of their game now, but nothing lasts forever, someone else will come along. Leave them in, D-3 football isn't about getting on television (although it would be nice), its about competing because you want to.

[FB24]

I do not know if it is good or bad for Division III football.  I have heard many rumors from credible sources that although Division III does not offer scholarships, Some schools likes Mount Union have found a loop hole around this.  Many schools do give Leadership Scholarships as part of their financial aid packages.  With Kehres being the Athletic Director at Mount Union as well as the HEad Fotball Coach, I have heard that he meets with every coach and assigns them a certain number of Leadership Scholarships per year.  It is not giving out scholarships, but in a way it is.  I wonder if Whitewater gives oout scholarships like this?  I have also heard of schools out west that give Talent Scholarships.  Talen scholarships can be for students who play a varsity sport.  So until all schools can have leadership scholarships or talent scholarships, there are always going to be an uneven playing field in Division III.  At least at the Division I level, every school gives scholarships.  At the Division III level, NOT all schools have Leadership scholarships or Talent scholarships to give out, which in a way makes it different from DI and makes for an uneven playing field

[smedindy]

Many, many schools have scholarships for leadership, talent, scholastic ability, etc. They are not unique to Mt. Union nor Whitewater.

[emma17]

Many, many schools have scholarships for leadership, talent, scholastic ability, etc. They are not unique to Mt. Union nor Whitewater.

And I don't imagine they are unique to DIII either. Even at a DI school not all players are in scholarship. Isn't it possible that non scholarship players on a DI and DII team can "qualify" for a special scholarship? 

If so, this just shows that nothing is "level" as some would define it. In effect, it's life.

[Mr. Ypsi]

I do not know if it is good or bad for Division III football.  I have heard many rumors from credible sources that although Division III does not offer scholarships, Some schools likes Mount Union have found a loop hole around this.  Many schools do give Leadership Scholarships as part of their financial aid packages.  With Kehres being the Athletic Director at Mount Union as well as the HEad Fotball Coach, I have heard that he meets with every coach and assigns them a certain number of Leadership Scholarships per year.  It is not giving out scholarships, but in a way it is.  I wonder if Whitewater gives oout scholarships like this?  I have also heard of schools out west that give Talent Scholarships.  Talen scholarships can be for students who play a varsity sport.  So until all schools can have leadership scholarships or talent scholarships, there are always going to be an uneven playing field in Division III.  At least at the Division I level, every school gives scholarships.  At the Division III level, NOT all schools have Leadership scholarships or Talent scholarships to give out, which in a way makes it different from DI and makes for an uneven playing field

The NCAA does do an audit of all d3 schools to make sure that scholarship money does not differ between athletes and non-athletes.  (The last audit I checked, athletes were actually receiving LESS financial aid than non-athletes at more schools than the reverse.)

I am not an expert on the process, and do not know, for example, whether the audit is sport-by-sport (e.g., whether-or-not a 'rogue' school could recruit football players by 'screwing' those in 'minor' sports.  The downside of sport-by-sport is that sometimes sports with low numbers may have an incredible mix of good students: at (d1) E. Michigan, I don't recall EVER giving a grade of less than B to a female soccer player, despite having a reputation in the athletic department as a 'tough grader' (to which I proudly admit 'guilty'!).  Aggregate numbers can be easily massaged, so I don't doubt for a second that a 'rogue' school could give a 'quasi-athletic' scholarship to a talented qb (or whatever) and easily bury it in the aggregate numbers.  Conclusions:

1.  There IS monitoring of d3 schools to make sure athletes are not being awarded more money than non-athletes.

2.  A 'rogue' school could probably easily evade this monitoring.

3.  We just have to hope that any such 'rogue' school would be turned in by it's own outraged fans, faculty, or parents of the 'screwed' students.

4.  I do not personally believe that either UMU or UWW is such a 'rogue' school, and believe that the posters supporting them would call foul if they were.

[Pat Coleman]

I do not know if it is good or bad for Division III football.  I have heard many rumors...

It's best not to spread them. Read Mr. Ypsi's post.

BTW, Mr. Ypsi, it seems like there is some sport-by-sport reporting of that kind.

[Mr. Ypsi]

I do not know if it is good or bad for Division III football.  I have heard many rumors...

It's best not to spread them. Read Mr. Ypsi's post.

BTW, Mr. Ypsi, it seems like there is some sport-by-sport reporting of that kind.

That was my guess, but I've never looked into it.  Do they then ask for clarification if a sport is way out of line (rather than jumping to conclusions)?  I could easily imagine a cross-country team (for example) where every member is quite deservedly on academic scholarship.

What would be trickier would be a single superstar a school wanted.  Just to use a silly example, how could the audit possibly catch UWSP giving Michael Jordan a full athletic scholarship if they shave just a bit off many other student-athletes' financial aid?

Ultimately, I think no system is perfect and it comes down to whistle-blowers.

[zach]

3.  We just have to hope that any such 'rogue' school would be turned in by it's own outraged fans, faculty, or parents of the 'screwed' students.

I doubt that the fans or students would turn on their own school. Is a couple thousand dollars really worth killing your school's program?

[jknezek]

3.  We just have to hope that any such 'rogue' school would be turned in by it's own outraged fans, faculty, or parents of the 'screwed' students.

I doubt that the fans or students would turn on their own school. Is a couple thousand dollars really worth killing your school's program?

At a D3 school? Absolutely someone would try. To be honest, most campuses newspapers would try since it would greatly increase their chances of winning awards and getting better jobs after graduation. Nothing sells like scandal. While I have no doubt there is some fudging going on at some schools, I doubt there is much out and out rule breaking. I also imagine both Mount and UWW have had some scrutiny over this issue during their runs and have come away clean.

As Mr. Yipsi pointed out, there are many ways all schools, if they were so inclined, could fudge and lots of wiggle room without ever breaking the rules.

There can't possibly be too many people on this board that believe UMU or UWW are doing anything underhanded. They have great coaches and facilities. UMU, especially, should be able to walk into any marginal D1 recruit's living room and put out an amazing pitch. UWW should be able to wander into any Wisconsin living room and say if you don't go to Madison, we are where you need to be.

They don't NEED to cheat with what they have going for them.

[Jonny Utah]

I do not know if it is good or bad for Division III football.  I have heard many rumors...

It's best not to spread them. Read Mr. Ypsi's post.

BTW, Mr. Ypsi, it seems like there is some sport-by-sport reporting of that kind.

Does the NCAA release some sort of spreadsheet or data on this?