Are the Purple Powers bad for D3?

[emma17]

Also, at most public institutions, scholarships are funded through a foundation which is separate from the institution. In my career as a fundraiser, working with university foundations can be tricky because they need to be separate from the institution yet their fundraisers work exclusively for certain departments. I could go on for days about fundraising operations and such...but that's where most of the private scholarship money for public institutions originate.

I was referring to the taxpayer money given to the public universities, not the private donations.  The hundreds of millions that the state gives to UW-Whitewater and Oshkosh every year and not Mount or St. Thomas.

UWW and Oshkosh receive Hundreds of Millions of dollars every year from taxpayers?  No wonder they are #'s 1&2 in the conference. I suspect River Falls only gets tens of millions.

Why do some people focus on what a successful person/school/organization must be doing wrong/unfairly benefitting from rather than finding what they are doing right?
For those that think UWW has some large crop of scholarship athletes I ask you- did you look at the roster/see the team?  Which of the UWW players looks like they don't fit the UWW/DIII mold?  Coppage?  Our receivers?  Our D-Backs?  Our undersized linebackers?  Our towering D linemen?
Come on, there are two players on UWW that have the physical appearance of a higher division player: Blanchard and Allemand (lt). In 2004 UWW was just another WIAC school and people didn't look for the unfair advantage then.
Coming back around to Is This Good or Bad for DIII- if you believe in the pursuit of excellence and you want proof that there will be rewards for the massive commitment it will take, then UWW and Mt are Great for DIII.
Stop looking for excuses and start looking for ways.

[dahlby]

emma17:

Plus k to you.

The NCAA, for better or worse, has enough audits to keep the playing fields mostly level. The only weakness that I can think of would be the different levels of academic standards at various schools that make it harder to maintain a "must be considered without any consideration(s) for athletics" scholarship requirements. Schools with lower requirements  or standards
can offer more money if the student athlete with a lower GPA or test score applies for funding.

As has been seen in the past, most schools will either be turned in by another school or will self report. Don't most schools have a compliance manager?

[AO]

Also, at most public institutions, scholarships are funded through a foundation which is separate from the institution. In my career as a fundraiser, working with university foundations can be tricky because they need to be separate from the institution yet their fundraisers work exclusively for certain departments. I could go on for days about fundraising operations and such...but that's where most of the private scholarship money for public institutions originate.

I was referring to the taxpayer money given to the public universities, not the private donations.  The hundreds of millions that the state gives to UW-Whitewater and Oshkosh every year and not Mount or St. Thomas.

UWW and Oshkosh receive Hundreds of Millions of dollars every year from taxpayers?  No wonder they are #'s 1&2 in the conference. I suspect River Falls only gets tens of millions.

Why do some people focus on what a successful person/school/organization must be doing wrong/unfairly benefitting from rather than finding what they are doing right?
For those that think UWW has some large crop of scholarship athletes I ask you- did you look at the roster/see the team?  Which of the UWW players looks like they don't fit the UWW/DIII mold?  Coppage?  Our receivers?  Our D-Backs?  Our undersized linebackers?  Our towering D linemen?
Come on, there are two players on UWW that have the physical appearance of a higher division player: Blanchard and Allemand (lt). In 2004 UWW was just another WIAC school and people didn't look for the unfair advantage then.
Coming back around to Is This Good or Bad for DIII- if you believe in the pursuit of excellence and you want proof that there will be rewards for the massive commitment it will take, then UWW and Mt are Great for DIII.
Stop looking for excuses and start looking for ways.

hundreds of millions refers to the total amount of taxpayer money going to the public universities.  The tens of millions would be more accurate when referring to just a single university such as Oshkosh who received $44 Million in state aid last year, not including any new buildings that the state also typically pays for.  It certainly is a major advantage for the public schools, but many schools like St. Thomas are able to make up the difference and then some with private donations.

[firstdown]

Aside from the scholarships, how do the tuition levels and costs of room and board compare at the public versus private members of D3?

[emma17]

Also, at most public institutions, scholarships are funded through a foundation which is separate from the institution. In my career as a fundraiser, working with university foundations can be tricky because they need to be separate from the institution yet their fundraisers work exclusively for certain departments. I could go on for days about fundraising operations and such...but that's where most of the private scholarship money for public institutions originate.

I was referring to the taxpayer money given to the public universities, not the private donations.  The hundreds of millions that the state gives to UW-Whitewater and Oshkosh every year and not Mount or St. Thomas.

UWW and Oshkosh receive Hundreds of Millions of dollars every year from taxpayers?  No wonder they are #'s 1&2 in the conference. I suspect River Falls only gets tens of millions.

Why do some people focus on what a successful person/school/organization must be doing wrong/unfairly benefitting from rather than finding what they are doing right?
For those that think UWW has some large crop of scholarship athletes I ask you- did you look at the roster/see the team?  Which of the UWW players looks like they don't fit the UWW/DIII mold?  Coppage?  Our receivers?  Our D-Backs?  Our undersized linebackers?  Our towering D linemen?
Come on, there are two players on UWW that have the physical appearance of a higher division player: Blanchard and Allemand (lt). In 2004 UWW was just another WIAC school and people didn't look for the unfair advantage then.
Coming back around to Is This Good or Bad for DIII- if you believe in the pursuit of excellence and you want proof that there will be rewards for the massive commitment it will take, then UWW and Mt are Great for DIII.
Stop looking for excuses and start looking for ways.

hundreds of millions refers to the total amount of taxpayer money going to the public universities.  The tens of millions would be more accurate when referring to just a single university such as Oshkosh who received $44 Million in state aid last year, not including any new buildings that the state also typically pays for.  It certainly is a major advantage for the public schools, but many schools like St. Thomas are able to make up the difference and then some with private donations.

Sorry, I thought you actually said the state gives UWW and Oshkosh hundreds of millions of dollars every year.  A wise man once said, the government gives nothing it doesn't first take.

I'm not sure what "advantage" you are speaking of.  As for facilities/new buildings- I don't know all the details as to how much the tax payers ponied up compared to how much was raised from private donations and revenue from football success.  If you've seen the UWW athletic complex you know it is pretty special.  I can't imagine tax payers would allocate a greater share to UWW than the rest of the state schools.  As such, the beautiful facilities speak again to the Commitment of a university/community/alumni base to make something great.  UWW doesn't have the patent on this approach- It is a model available to every single DIII school in the country. 

[Pat Coleman]

Why move up to D1 and be an average D1 team when you can be the dominant team in Division III?  Also in response to the post about most of the money at Whitewater is work study?  How can students afford to work that many hours to have most of thier aid package be from work study?  At most schools, work study money is capped so how can most of thier financial aid come from work study?  When do they go to class then?

Also, to the post about getting help from Admissions, that is a huge thing which separates a lot of Division III schools.  If you recall, Larry Kinnnard in the early 2000's was an OT for Mount.  He was declared Ineligible at Ohio State, but some how was eligible at Mount?  I recall or heard the same thing about Pierre Garcon.  He was ineligible at his previous school before coming to Mount Union?  It has happened at a lot of OAC schools.  How can this be?  If DIII is supposed to be about education and putting the true meaning in the value of Student-Athlete, than how is that possible?  Just a thought throwing out there

I don't think Pierre Garcon was ineligible, nor was he a bad student.  That is just what I've heard from some Norwich people.

He was NOT ineligible at Norwich. If he was ineligible at Norwich he would have had to sit out a year after transferring by NCAA rule.

FB24 -- you should stick to facts, rather than "things you hear."

Kinnard wasn't ineligible at OSU, but he was .005 GPA short of avoiding Prop 48, so he could not get a football scholarship. He did get into the school and was eligible.

[Jonny Utah]

Also, at most public institutions, scholarships are funded through a foundation which is separate from the institution. In my career as a fundraiser, working with university foundations can be tricky because they need to be separate from the institution yet their fundraisers work exclusively for certain departments. I could go on for days about fundraising operations and such...but that's where most of the private scholarship money for public institutions originate.

I was referring to the taxpayer money given to the public universities, not the private donations.  The hundreds of millions that the state gives to UW-Whitewater and Oshkosh every year and not Mount or St. Thomas.

UWW and Oshkosh receive Hundreds of Millions of dollars every year from taxpayers?  No wonder they are #'s 1&2 in the conference. I suspect River Falls only gets tens of millions.

Why do some people focus on what a successful person/school/organization must be doing wrong/unfairly benefitting from rather than finding what they are doing right?
For those that think UWW has some large crop of scholarship athletes I ask you- did you look at the roster/see the team?  Which of the UWW players looks like they don't fit the UWW/DIII mold?  Coppage?  Our receivers?  Our D-Backs?  Our undersized linebackers?  Our towering D linemen?
Come on, there are two players on UWW that have the physical appearance of a higher division player: Blanchard and Allemand (lt). In 2004 UWW was just another WIAC school and people didn't look for the unfair advantage then.
Coming back around to Is This Good or Bad for DIII- if you believe in the pursuit of excellence and you want proof that there will be rewards for the massive commitment it will take, then UWW and Mt are Great for DIII.
Stop looking for excuses and start looking for ways.

hundreds of millions refers to the total amount of taxpayer money going to the public universities.  The tens of millions would be more accurate when referring to just a single university such as Oshkosh who received $44 Million in state aid last year, not including any new buildings that the state also typically pays for.  It certainly is a major advantage for the public schools, but many schools like St. Thomas are able to make up the difference and then some with private donations.

Sorry, I thought you actually said the state gives UWW and Oshkosh hundreds of millions of dollars every year.  A wise man once said, the government gives nothing it doesn't first take.

I'm not sure what "advantage" you are speaking of.  As for facilities/new buildings- I don't know all the details as to how much the tax payers ponied up compared to how much was raised from private donations and revenue from football success.  If you've seen the UWW athletic complex you know it is pretty special.  I can't imagine tax payers would allocate a greater share to UWW than the rest of the state schools.  As such, the beautiful facilities speak again to the Commitment of a university/community/alumni base to make something great.  UWW doesn't have the patent on this approach- It is a model available to every single DIII school in the country.   

You would have to admit that some state schools are going to get more money for different things when it comes to sports.  I don't know about Wisconsin but it is clear that in new York the state gives Cortland more money than they do brockport or buffalo state.  You see it here in massachusetts too.  Some state schools get more funding than others.  I'm sure politics comes into play, but that isn't always bad if the right people get money for d3 sports in my opinion.  I mean, it happens in d1 too.  Texas and Texas a&m, Michigan and Michigan state, etc, etc

[smedindy]

UW-WHITEWATER does not give out "leadership" scholarships.  Most financial aide is need based and the majority of it is work-study.

found one, though it's pretty small.
https://scholarships.uww.edu/detail.aspx?ID=81


The major "scholarships" at a public school come from the taxpayer. 

If a d3 school could afford to give out full leadership scholarships to their athletes, why not just move up to d1?

Because they don't all go to athletes. They go to well-rounded students, who happen to be athletes, debaters, actors, scientists, musicians, etc. Mostly all rolled into one!

Wabash has Honors Scholarships, which is based on taking a test; Lilly Scholarship, which is a very rigorous process; and Presidential Scholarships based upon scholarship in high school.

Those scholarships do go to athletes. They also go to non-athletes. Do you understand the subtleties, AO?

Merely pointing out the obvious.  If a school was motivated enough to win that they would try to cheat by offering large leadership scholarships only to their athletes, they would likely also have the money/desire to get the recognition from winning on a higher level.  There isn't much financial incentive to win in d3.

Again, not everything is a dollars-and-cents, zero-sum game. Besides, at most all D3 institutions the howl from the faculty would be enormous.

[DanPadavona]

Coming back around to Is This Good or Bad for DIII- if you believe in the pursuit of excellence and you want proof that there will be rewards for the massive commitment it will take, then UWW and Mt are Great for DIII.
Stop looking for excuses and start looking for ways.

It's not as easy as that. Name one D3 conference that benefits like the WIAC from a lack of competition in state. If the University of Wisconsin is not an option, you are probably going to the WIAC. The amount of football talent divided between so few schools is something which say New Jersey, Pennsylvania, or New York could ever hope to compete with.

I'm not blaming the WIAC. I'm just pointing out that saying "let's start to look for ways" to become as good as MUC or UWW is over simplifying things. I highly doubt Montclair and Rowan don't take football as seriously as a WIAC team does. If there were only 8 or 9 teams in all of New York, how good do you think the best team would be? I bet they'd play in a lot of national championships.

The only hope for a team to break through is to absolutely dominate one area in recruiting, probably due to geographic advantages (lack of competition). Otherwise until roster limits are imposed, we will continue to see MUC vs UWW (or another WIAC team) for a long time.

[smedindy]

Dan,

There's plenty of competition for Wisconsin kids. The CCIW, the nearby Minnesota privates, MWC schools, and NATHC schools are close enough to nab kids from Wisconsin. It's not that far to either Chicago or Minneapolis for the majority of the population.

[DanPadavona]

The vast majority of D2/D3 kids stay in-state Smed. I don't know what the financial incentive is in Wisconsin or Minnesota. But if you aren't going D1 on scholarship, you are probably looking to save money on your college education however possible. Staying in state is usually a big cost saver for most US states.

That doesn't stop Cortland from grabbing 2 or 3 kids from New Jersey. But as a rule, you usually play ball in-state.

[Kira & Jaxon's Dad]

Why move up to D1 and be an average D1 team when you can be the dominant team in Division III?  Also in response to the post about most of the money at Whitewater is work study?  How can students afford to work that many hours to have most of thier aid package be from work study?  At most schools, work study money is capped so how can most of thier financial aid come from work study?  When do they go to class then?

Also, to the post about getting help from Admissions, that is a huge thing which separates a lot of Division III schools.  If you recall, Larry Kinnnard in the early 2000's was an OT for Mount.  He was declared Ineligible at Ohio State, but some how was eligible at Mount?  I recall or heard the same thing about Pierre Garcon.  He was ineligible at his previous school before coming to Mount Union?  It has happened at a lot of OAC schools.  How can this be?  If DIII is supposed to be about education and putting the true meaning in the value of Student-Athlete, than how is that possible?  Just a thought throwing out there

I don't think Pierre Garcon was ineligible, nor was he a bad student.  That is just what I've heard from some Norwich people.

He was NOT ineligible at Norwich. If he was ineligible at Norwich he would have had to sit out a year after transferring by NCAA rule.

FB24 -- you should stick to facts, rather than "things you hear."

Kinnard wasn't ineligible at OSU, but he was .005 GPA short of avoiding Prop 48, so he could not get a football scholarship. He did get into the school and was eligible.

His father was also losing his fight with Cancer at he time, and I believe that factored into Kinnard staying home in Alliance.  Especially after the Prop 48 issue that came up.

I agree with you Pat, FB24 should stop throwing "things he has heard" around and stick to what he knows as facts.

[smedindy]

The vast majority of D2/D3 kids stay in-state Smed. I don't know what the financial incentive is in Wisconsin or Minnesota. But if you aren't going D1 on scholarship, you are probably looking to save money on your college education however possible. Staying in state is usually a big cost saver for most US states.

That doesn't stop Cortland from grabbing 2 or 3 kids from New Jersey. But as a rule, you usually play ball in-state.

Not necessarily around the Midwest. Look at all of the Wisconsin kids on the St. Thomas roster. Don't paint each region with the same brush as yours, Dan.

College students go for the best fit. More and more students are expanding their horizons.

[zach]

The vast majority of D2/D3 kids stay in-state Smed. I don't know what the financial incentive is in Wisconsin or Minnesota. But if you aren't going D1 on scholarship, you are probably looking to save money on your college education however possible. Staying in state is usually a big cost saver for most US states.

That doesn't stop Cortland from grabbing 2 or 3 kids from New Jersey. But as a rule, you usually play ball in-state.

I don't have the exact number on me, but wisconsin-whitewater has an in-state/out of state ratio around 50-50.

[smedindy]

Also, Dan, you're discounting schools such as St. Norbert, Carroll, Ripon, Carthage, etc. who are in Wisconsin. I mentioned their conferences earlier in my discussion.

By my count Wabash had over 20 kids from outside of Indiana playing football. More than a handful. They used to have more of a base in Chicago and Cincy and that's waxed and waned over time.