Are the Purple Powers bad for D3?

[Jonny Utah]

According to the IWW website, they have 10,230 undergrads and 10,161 Wisconsin residents (with 1,385 grad students).

Good for them if they are getting out of state kids to play football.  I would assume the school wants to see more out of state students in general.  Plus it looks like tuition almost doubles for out of state students. 

But 4k for in state tuition to play football at UWW?  Why wouldn't you want to go there

[ncc58]

FB24 - I think more schools are looking outside their 'comfort' zone for sure, not because of athletics, but to bring a well-rounded student body to the institution. Diversity is key and that even means bringing a kid from Texas to Minnesota or Indiana.

BTW, I think there are about 25 players from outside of Wisconsin on Whitewater's roster, so it is no way exclusively a Wisconsin recruiting base.

St. Norbert has about 45 or so players on its roster from outside of Wisconsin.

Meanwhile, North Central's roster is almost exclusively Illinois kids and there are a boat-load of options for in-state folks.

I counted 20 players on the UWW roster from Illinois. Most are from the Chicago area, many from the northwest suburbs. Even from the south suburbs, it's less than 3 hours to Whitewater. Some Illinois players are from hometowns not more than an hour from Whitewater. Not that it matters that much. Especially after 7 Stagg Bowl appearances in a row, UWW is well known through the Midwest as a premiere football program.

Such schools as Wheaton, Bethel, and the Saints (Thomas, Norbert, etc) attract student athletes nationally based on their religious affiliations. Other school attract students nationally based on their stellar academic standards and reputations. That's just how it is.

[DGPugh]

smedly "Sorry but you're way off on b. Way way off. See the Title IX thread and I shoot down the effect on men's sports. It's inept and cowardly administrators, not the act."

we can go outside (uh over to the title 9 thread) but i could not disagree with u any mo strongly.
it is about money, and how much can go around.

where i live football pays the bill for all athletics, baseball and mens round ball come close and occasionally make thier tab, but the rest have to subsist off football dollars. where i work (granted D-1 SEC) got 2  3 more sports for girls than boys (enrollment ratio vs opotunity...one of the title 9 formulas), no, the administrators were not cowardly... they just faced the fact that to rack in the football $ you had to be the best ( or near it) and that cost a bunch for that sport. and that sport pays for all the girl sports (where i work 2 are perriniel national champs... and the young ladies participate)

we will have to agree to disagree  ... 30 yrs of academia has taught me u put resources where u get the most return, then u spread the rest to keep the federalis off your back
keep the faith

[02 Warhawk]

According to the IWW website, they have 10,230 undergrads and 10,161 Wisconsin residents (with 1,385 grad students).

Good for them if they are getting out of state kids to play football.  I would assume the school wants to see more out of state students in general.  Plus it looks like tuition almost doubles for out of state students. 

But 4k for in state tuition to play football at UWW?  Why wouldn't you want to go there

Not quite

A full-time in-state student will pay 5-6k for one semester at UWW. That doesn't inlcude meal plans or parking. Bare minimum.

Those from IL will be coughing up almost 20K per year to attend UWW.

[DGPugh]

again, i think that purple is good, i have watched the past 5 purple matches in salem, really enjoyed em (actually 5 of the 6- stuck in wytheville for the snow storm)

these 2 will be replaced by other dominants programs if the world keeps spinning

in 2007, when the boy decided to go D-3 (instead of special teams only at somthing else) my son's in law (married to his sisters) my cuzin's (hay we are in bama so their are a bunch) came out of the wood work at family gatherings, asking all kind of questions. Now all of them know about 4 football programs, thier school (pick- Auburn, UAT-cheaters, UGA) ..Huntingdon, and Uww/ Mount Union.

the Stagg bowl is now part of our families Lexicon, and part of the aura is the athletisim and dominence of those 2 schools. they will be replaced, but the attention has brought us to this discussion

i realize with my extended family this represents a small tight gene pool, but the dominence of Uww & mount has captived these non D-3 thanking folk. sure we'd like to see the teams that beat us in the Stagg (Wesley, Trinity), or better who we beat in there, heck we'd like to see Huntingdon make the playoffs again. But these last 7 Staggs have been pretty good games with a national audience

i think the attention has been good for D-3, but even if many disagree with me, it is the way it is, and everyone that wants to displace them can attempt to immulate thier success
keep the faith and have a most glorious New Year
Go Hawks

[Gregory Sager]

Dan,

There's plenty of competition for Wisconsin kids. The CCIW, the nearby Minnesota privates, MWC schools, and NATHC schools are close enough to nab kids from Wisconsin. It's not that far to either Chicago or Minneapolis for the majority of the population.

You're under a misapprehension if you think that the 'W' in "CCIW" is anything other than a literalistic recognition of the fact that one of the league's eight schools is (barely) located north of the Halas-Lombardi Line. That one Wisconsin school, Carthage, draws a very large percentage of its student population (it may even be greater than half) from Illinois, largely because the vast majority of the people who live within 100 miles of the Carthage campus live in Illinois and the school has a policy of matching Illinois state aid for any residents of the Land of Lincoln who enroll there. Carthage's sports teams have usually tended to be Illinois-centric; of the 130 or so players listed on the Carthage football roster, only a dozen are cheeseheads -- and one of them is the son of the school's head basketball coach. Heck, St. Thomas has half again as many Wisconsin residents on its football roster as Carthage has. Carthage is, in a lot of ways, an island of FIBs in a sea of cheese. (I have no idea how ILGator came up with "FISH" instead of "FIB" in terms of how the cheeseheads refer to those of us who live on the more cosmopolitan side of the Halas-Lombardi Line, although it's not hard to figure out the acronym. )

None of the other seven CCIW schools recruit in Wisconsin. I don't think that the MIAC regularly recruits in l'etat de fromage, either, with the possible exception of the St. Thomas football team. And it's already been pointed out that the MWC and NAthC schools in Wisconsin really don't compete much with WIAC schools for recruits. They generally get an inferior brand of athlete in terms of size and skill, because their schools are on a lower competitive tier than the WIAC (and, in the case of the MWC, the coaches can't recruit off-campus). Also, the five MWC schools that are located in Curdistan (Beloit, Carroll, Ripon, Lawrence, and St. Norbert) tend to recruit a higher-quality athlete in terms of academic background, given that they're fairly strong academic schools. That's one reason why they're more likely to recruit out-of-state as well, as you've noted yourself in the case of St. Norbert's football team.

The WIAC pretty much has a lock on any in-state athlete who is just shy of being D1 quality.

[Gregory Sager]

Coming back around to Is This Good or Bad for DIII- if you believe in the pursuit of excellence and you want proof that there will be rewards for the massive commitment it will take, then UWW and Mt are Great for DIII.
Stop looking for excuses and start looking for ways.

It's not as easy as that. Name one D3 conference that benefits like the WIAC from a lack of competition in state. If the University of Wisconsin is not an option, you are probably going to the WIAC. The amount of football talent divided between so few schools is something which say New Jersey, Pennsylvania, or New York could ever hope to compete with.

To be fair to the WIAC, you're only telling half the story in terms of demographics. The states you named -- New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and New York -- have much larger populations than does Wisconsin, which means a lot more high-school football players in each of those states than they have up there in Curdistan. More schools competing for those high-school football players, sure ... but a bigger pool of high-school football players from which to recruit.

The vast majority of D2/D3 kids stay in-state Smed. I don't know what the financial incentive is in Wisconsin or Minnesota. But if you aren't going D1 on scholarship, you are probably looking to save money on your college education however possible. Staying in state is usually a big cost saver for most US states.

That doesn't stop Cortland from grabbing 2 or 3 kids from New Jersey. But as a rule, you usually play ball in-state.

That isn't true at every college.  Carleton, for example, had a roster that was split about 50/50 last year in state vs. out of state and had players from 16 states and Kenya.  St. Olaf has had a pretty steady pipeline from Florida for several years and had 22 from Florida (and one from the Bahamas) on the team this last year.  Gustavus, on the other hand, is in the same conference and is almost exclusively MN kids.  It seems to me like teams reflect where the coaches choose to focus their recruiting efforts rather than a rule that you always play in state.

As FB24 pointed out, this is less a case of "where the coaches choose to focus their recruiting efforts" than it is a matter of certain high-academics schools (Carleton included) being nationally-ranked liberal arts institutions that, both by choice and necessity, recruit their student bodies from coast to coast rather than locally, student-athletes included. Likewise, some schools such as Wheaton and North Park draw students nationally for religious reasons.

Mr. Ypsi:

I can only speak for what I know about Chapman and the local state schools and other D3 schools in the area. As CU has grown over the past 10 years, the amount of money available thru the scholarship pipeline to incoming students has reduced as the cost has increased. Many students, including the ones that I hired before I retired, are taking out higher loans to offset the balance. Although the state is in bad shape financially, it is still way less expensive to attend a state school. And, as CU's academic standards have risen, it is harder to qualify for scholarship funds. I know of stuidents that have graduated with well over a hundred thousand dollars iin loans. But, they feel that the extra financial burden will pay off in the long run.

Yeah, there are always exceptions.  I was speaking of the general picture, and those privates with decent endowments generally can be more forthcoming on FA than can most publics.  Generally speaking, the net tuition gap is far less than the 'sticker' tuition gap.

I understand what you're saying, Chuck, but the problem is that it can be misconstrued as meaning that the net tuition gap between public and private is miniscule. It isn't. Most students who attend private schools take out thousands -- indeed, often tens of thousands -- of dollars in bank loans and spend the first ten or fifteen years of their post-collegiate working lives paying off those loans on a month-by-month basis. I certainly remember the dismay I felt when the thick little book of loan-payment coupons showed up in my mailbox six months after I finished my North Park education. I looked at it and thought, "Man, I am going to be in debt forever." It's actually the last little bit of undergraduate learning that one receives, as it's a precursor to the wonderful world of home mortgages.

Fearing that 'sticker shock' would eliminate applicants before they could even learn about 'net' costs, North Park tried something innovative a few years ago.  They drastically lowered the 'sticker' price (with, of necessity, a commensurate decrease in FA for all but the neediest students).  I'm not associated with NPU in any way, but reports are that it has worked VERY well.  For some schools, high 'sticker' price is a PR plus, but perhaps other schools should investigate the NPU tactic.

To give credit where credit is due, Marietta is the school that developed this innovation. It worked so well there that NPU adopted it as well. As you said, it's led to both a quantitative and a qualitative increase in the student body at North Park.

[Jonny Utah]

According to the IWW website, they have 10,230 undergrads and 10,161 Wisconsin residents (with 1,385 grad students).

Good for them if they are getting out of state kids to play football.  I would assume the school wants to see more out of state students in general.  Plus it looks like tuition almost doubles for out of state students. 

But 4k for in state tuition to play football at UWW?  Why wouldn't you want to go there

Not quite

A full-time in-state student will pay 5-6k for one semester at UWW. That doesn't inlcude meal plans or parking. Bare minimum.

Those from IL will be coughing up almost 20K per year to attend UWW.

Ah the 3,600 was for one semester for tuition only.  Still a pretty good deal for in state students.

[Jonny Utah]

Dan,

There's plenty of competition for Wisconsin kids. The CCIW, the nearby Minnesota privates, MWC schools, and NATHC schools are close enough to nab kids from Wisconsin. It's not that far to either Chicago or Minneapolis for the majority of the population.

You're under a misapprehension if you think that the 'W' in "CCIW" is anything other than a literalistic recognition of the fact that one of the league's eight schools is (barely) located north of the Halas-Lombardi Line. That one Wisconsin school, Carthage, draws a very large percentage of its student population (it may even be greater than half) from Illinois, largely because the vast majority of the people who live within 100 miles of the Carthage campus live in Illinois and the school has a policy of matching Illinois state aid for any residents of the Land of Lincoln who enroll there. Carthage's sports teams have usually tended to be Illinois-centric; of the 130 or so players listed on the Carthage football roster, only a dozen are cheeseheads -- and one of them is the son of the school's head basketball coach. Heck, St. Thomas has half again as many Wisconsin residents on its football roster as Carthage has. Carthage is, in a lot of ways, an island of FIBs in a sea of cheese. (I have no idea how ILGator came up with "FISH" instead of "FIB" in terms of how the cheeseheads refer to those of us who live on the more cosmopolitan side of the Halas-Lombardi Line, although it's not hard to figure out the acronym. )

None of the other seven CCIW schools recruit in Wisconsin. I don't think that the MIAC regularly recruits in l'etat de fromage, either, with the possible exception of the St. Thomas football team. And it's already been pointed out that the MWC and NAthC schools in Wisconsin really don't compete much with WIAC schools for recruits. They generally get an inferior brand of athlete in terms of size and skill, because their schools are on a lower competitive tier than the WIAC (and, in the case of the MWC, the coaches can't recruit off-campus). Also, the five MWC schools that are located in Curdistan (Beloit, Carroll, Ripon, Lawrence, and St. Norbert) tend to recruit a higher-quality athlete in terms of academic background, given that they're fairly strong academic schools. That's one reason why they're more likely to recruit out-of-state as well, as you've noted yourself in the case of St. Norbert's football team.

The WIAC pretty much has a lock on any in-state athlete who is just shy of being D1 quality.

Carthage is a private school.  Why would it matter where students come from in terms of aid?

[Gregory Sager]

Dan,

There's plenty of competition for Wisconsin kids. The CCIW, the nearby Minnesota privates, MWC schools, and NATHC schools are close enough to nab kids from Wisconsin. It's not that far to either Chicago or Minneapolis for the majority of the population.

You're under a misapprehension if you think that the 'W' in "CCIW" is anything other than a literalistic recognition of the fact that one of the league's eight schools is (barely) located north of the Halas-Lombardi Line. That one Wisconsin school, Carthage, draws a very large percentage of its student population (it may even be greater than half) from Illinois, largely because the vast majority of the people who live within 100 miles of the Carthage campus live in Illinois and the school has a policy of matching Illinois state aid for any residents of the Land of Lincoln who enroll there. Carthage's sports teams have usually tended to be Illinois-centric; of the 130 or so players listed on the Carthage football roster, only a dozen are cheeseheads -- and one of them is the son of the school's head basketball coach. Heck, St. Thomas has half again as many Wisconsin residents on its football roster as Carthage has. Carthage is, in a lot of ways, an island of FIBs in a sea of cheese. (I have no idea how ILGator came up with "FISH" instead of "FIB" in terms of how the cheeseheads refer to those of us who live on the more cosmopolitan side of the Halas-Lombardi Line, although it's not hard to figure out the acronym. )

None of the other seven CCIW schools recruit in Wisconsin. I don't think that the MIAC regularly recruits in l'etat de fromage, either, with the possible exception of the St. Thomas football team. And it's already been pointed out that the MWC and NAthC schools in Wisconsin really don't compete much with WIAC schools for recruits. They generally get an inferior brand of athlete in terms of size and skill, because their schools are on a lower competitive tier than the WIAC (and, in the case of the MWC, the coaches can't recruit off-campus). Also, the five MWC schools that are located in Curdistan (Beloit, Carroll, Ripon, Lawrence, and St. Norbert) tend to recruit a higher-quality athlete in terms of academic background, given that they're fairly strong academic schools. That's one reason why they're more likely to recruit out-of-state as well, as you've noted yourself in the case of St. Norbert's football team.

The WIAC pretty much has a lock on any in-state athlete who is just shy of being D1 quality.

Carthage is a private school.  Why would it matter where students come from in terms of aid?

States can and do provide financial aid to students at private colleges, just as does the federal government (e.g., Pell Grants). At Carthage, students who are Illinois residents are given the same amount of aid by the college that they would've received from the IL Dept. of Education in Springfield had they attended a college in Illinois.

[Gregory Sager]

Bleed Purple said it well in the original post.

My official position is that it does no good to wonder whether it's good or bad -- it just IS. So I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about it, or reading this entire thread, to be honest.

Two truisms that don't quite answer the question:
1) The 32-team playoff produces an undisputed champion. Along the way, it produces exciting games, as well as its fair share of duds/blowouts, but also something more: A chance for D-III athletes to measure themselves against the best, and compete against their peers.

And to that end, you have to ask yourself, what do you want out of a playoff system? Is the goal just to mix up who gets to win championships? Or to produce a deserving champion? To give as many teams as possible to opportunity to truly earn a championship? How much does just getting to have the experience factor in?

The playoffs aren't perfect, but I've yet to hear a suggestion that will clearly and fairly improve them. I love that it wraps up before Christmas, with the undisputed champ, and gives 32 schools 1-5 extra weeks of team bonding, road trips, tailgates, on-campus fan experiences and memories that last a lifetime.

2) There's been a lack of variety in Salem, but the games have not been boring, and that wasn't always true pre-UWW. I've never walked away from an all-purple Stagg Bowl thinking "well, that was a crappy game."

Most of the other good points have surely been made so I won't attempt to repeat them. Enjoy!

Well said, K-Mack.

According to the IWW website, they have 10,230 undergrads and 10,161 Wisconsin residents (with 1,385 grad students).

That quote seems a little Wobbly to me.

smedly "Sorry but you're way off on b. Way way off. See the Title IX thread and I shoot down the effect on men's sports. It's inept and cowardly administrators, not the act."

we can go outside (uh over to the title 9 thread) but i could not disagree with u any mo strongly.
it is about money, and how much can go around.

where i live football pays the bill for all athletics, baseball and mens round ball come close and occasionally make thier tab, but the rest have to subsist off football dollars. where i work (granted D-1 SEC) got 2  3 more sports for girls than boys (enrollment ratio vs opotunity...one of the title 9 formulas), no, the administrators were not cowardly... they just faced the fact that to rack in the football $ you had to be the best ( or near it) and that cost a bunch for that sport. and that sport pays for all the girl sports (where i work 2 are perriniel national champs... and the young ladies participate)

we will have to agree to disagree  ... 30 yrs of academia has taught me u put resources where u get the most return, then u spread the rest to keep the federalis off your back
keep the faith

I'm with the Rev. Hobart and DGPugh here, smeds. There's a lot more to this than just "cowardly administrators." I've sat down with (non-NPU) D3 administrators and coaches who've actually broken down the numbers for me. I think that Title IX is generally a good thing, but there's no doubt that there's been unavoidable collateral damage to so-called minor men's sports as a result of it.

[Jonny Utah]

Bleed Purple said it well in the original post.

My official position is that it does no good to wonder whether it's good or bad -- it just IS. So I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about it, or reading this entire thread, to be honest.

Two truisms that don't quite answer the question:
1) The 32-team playoff produces an undisputed champion. Along the way, it produces exciting games, as well as its fair share of duds/blowouts, but also something more: A chance for D-III athletes to measure themselves against the best, and compete against their peers.

And to that end, you have to ask yourself, what do you want out of a playoff system? Is the goal just to mix up who gets to win championships? Or to produce a deserving champion? To give as many teams as possible to opportunity to truly earn a championship? How much does just getting to have the experience factor in?

The playoffs aren't perfect, but I've yet to hear a suggestion that will clearly and fairly improve them. I love that it wraps up before Christmas, with the undisputed champ, and gives 32 schools 1-5 extra weeks of team bonding, road trips, tailgates, on-campus fan experiences and memories that last a lifetime.

2) There's been a lack of variety in Salem, but the games have not been boring, and that wasn't always true pre-UWW. I've never walked away from an all-purple Stagg Bowl thinking "well, that was a crappy game."

Most of the other good points have surely been made so I won't attempt to repeat them. Enjoy!

Well said, K-Mack.

According to the IWW website, they have 10,230 undergrads and 10,161 Wisconsin residents (with 1,385 grad students).

That quote seems a little Wobbly to me.

smedly "Sorry but you're way off on b. Way way off. See the Title IX thread and I shoot down the effect on men's sports. It's inept and cowardly administrators, not the act."

we can go outside (uh over to the title 9 thread) but i could not disagree with u any mo strongly.
it is about money, and how much can go around.

where i live football pays the bill for all athletics, baseball and mens round ball come close and occasionally make thier tab, but the rest have to subsist off football dollars. where i work (granted D-1 SEC) got 2  3 more sports for girls than boys (enrollment ratio vs opotunity...one of the title 9 formulas), no, the administrators were not cowardly... they just faced the fact that to rack in the football $ you had to be the best ( or near it) and that cost a bunch for that sport. and that sport pays for all the girl sports (where i work 2 are perriniel national champs... and the young ladies participate)

we will have to agree to disagree  ... 30 yrs of academia has taught me u put resources where u get the most return, then u spread the rest to keep the federalis off your back
keep the faith

I'm with the Rev. Hobart and DGPugh here, smeds. There's a lot more to this than just "cowardly administrators." I've sat down with (non-NPU) D3 administrators and coaches who've actually broken down the numbers for me. I think that Title IX is generally a good thing, but there's no doubt that there's been unavoidable collateral damage to so-called minor men's sports as a result of it.

It was right on the website under facts.  I assume the school wouldn't count students living on campus as Wisconsin residents?

[smedindy]

Greg,

I'm glad you didn't lace your comments with pejoratives and 'whistle-words'. It's not about being PC, it's about opportunity.

[DGPugh]

I appreciate yall apparently humoring me (or possibly not) but i am enjoying this.
I am nusing a cold, and the boy is home, so he is riding the tractor, and i am playing on the computer

Huntingdon ( private, liberal arts, montgomery, al, independent, and 7-3 with a real tough schedule this season) web site reveals (if i can add??) football team: 102 bama kids, 25 flo-rida kids, 7 from Ga, 3 from europe, and 1 each from Ca nad NC. After spring and heading into the summer/fall, it will have probably have ~60-70 bama, with about 20 fl holdovers.  this time next yr  it will appear very similar (if it follows the past 5 yr trends)

Take into account Montgomery is in the lower middle of a small relitively poor state (but we be proud) with football programs in 5 D-1, 4 D-1aa (sorry.. fcs), 5 d-2's (i am unsure of possibly 2 others that are HBCU's), 2 and about to be 3 NAIA's, and 2 D-3's   

i spect i am the only one that bothers readin my posts, but this sure is fun
keep the faith
Go Hawks

[AO]

Greg,

I'm glad you didn't lace your comments with pejoratives and 'whistle-words'. It's not about being PC, it's about opportunity.

absolutely, it's about restricting opportunities for male student athletes.  Discrimination in the name of ending discrimination.  The ncaa already mandates a certain number of sports be fielded.  If school A has 10 mens and 10 women's sports under title IX, but would have 12 mens and 10 womens sports if title IX was repealed, whose opportunity is being taken away by title IX?  It's hard to say exactly how administrators would proceed without title IX, but it seems highly unlikely that there would be fewer women playing sports without title IX.  I take the optimistic view that women's sports are now valuable enough on their own to keep and that the vast majority of athletic directors are not sexist.