Are the Purple Powers bad for D3?

[Pat Coleman]

The Chiefs were at River Falls.

[ncc58]

I believe UWW's AD Paul Plinske is on record as saying, "We want to provide our football players, student body, and fans with a Division I experience."  And, with that statement we know that the old DIII justification for football as an educational experience that promotes the values of fair competition and good sportsmanship are no longer of primary importance at UWW.   Winning is the name of their game, and to maintain a winning edge money becomes the difference-maker, money that builds and maintains state-of-the-art weight rooms, locker rooms, FieldTurf, Jumbotrons, and stadia.   At UWO, for example, every sport had its budget cut while football received a slight increase in these tough budgetary times.  Is Oshkosh's goal a better educational experience for their players?  Or, a more competitive team for their students, fans, and alumni to rally around? I believe the two goals are mutually exclusive.  Does anyone doubt that there is an almost perfect correlation between a team's rank in conference and its rank in terms of financial and physical resources?  Perhaps the idea of a Division IV should start to become more than just talk.   

Bulls**t

You don't have a clue what he meant.     

That's a strong reaction. Can you expand on what you think Paul Plinske meant. In his public interview for the UWM AD position in December of 2010, Plinske said that UWW is a D-1 school in a D-3 conference. It's interesting that Plinske came from LaCrosse, who was the big dog in WIAC football before UWW seized control in 2005. Plinske also said in that interview that the three keys to recruiting are facilities, a good coaching staff, and success in the programs.

In another interview Plinske talked about the facilities:

In 2004, we developed an outdoor facilities master plan, which allowed us to renovate our baseball, softball, track, soccer, and football facilities. We brought all constituents, including recreation and intramurals, together to identify their needs. Once we had a plan developed, we presented it to our student government, the state, and some influential donors. We showed them how we could increase our enrollment and improve our athletic success if we improved these facilities.

Each of those groups stepped up to the plate. Our students gave us $4.4 million, the state gave us half a million, and donors gave us close to $2 million.

Maybe everyone else knows this but the $4.4M from students jumps out - that's about $400 per student. I'm assuming there was some kind of special assessment in 2004 or 2005?

[Just Bill]

The Saints trained at La Crosse for multiple years, but no longer do.

The Packers house their younger players at St. Norbert College during training camp, but all practices and workouts are done at the Packers' facilities.

[badgerwarhawk]

I believe UWW's AD Paul Plinske is on record as saying, "We want to provide our football players, student body, and fans with a Division I experience."  And, with that statement we know that the old DIII justification for football as an educational experience that promotes the values of fair competition and good sportsmanship are no longer of primary importance at UWW.   Winning is the name of their game, and to maintain a winning edge money becomes the difference-maker, money that builds and maintains state-of-the-art weight rooms, locker rooms, FieldTurf, Jumbotrons, and stadia.   At UWO, for example, every sport had its budget cut while football received a slight increase in these tough budgetary times.  Is Oshkosh's goal a better educational experience for their players?  Or, a more competitive team for their students, fans, and alumni to rally around? I believe the two goals are mutually exclusive.  Does anyone doubt that there is an almost perfect correlation between a team's rank in conference and its rank in terms of financial and physical resources?  Perhaps the idea of a Division IV should start to become more than just talk.   

Bulls**t

You don't have a clue what he meant.     

That's a strong reaction. Can you expand on what you think Paul Plinske meant. In his public interview for the UWM AD position in December of 2010, Plinske said that UWW is a D-1 school in a D-3 conference. It's interesting that Plinske came from LaCrosse, who was the big dog in WIAC football before UWW seized control in 2005. Plinske also said in that interview that the three keys to recruiting are facilities, a good coaching staff, and success in the programs.

In another interview Plinske talked about the facilities:

In 2004, we developed an outdoor facilities master plan, which allowed us to renovate our baseball, softball, track, soccer, and football facilities. We brought all constituents, including recreation and intramurals, together to identify their needs. Once we had a plan developed, we presented it to our student government, the state, and some influential donors. We showed them how we could increase our enrollment and improve our athletic success if we improved these facilities.

Each of those groups stepped up to the plate. Our students gave us $4.4 million, the state gave us half a million, and donors gave us close to $2 million.

Maybe everyone else knows this but the $4.4M from students jumps out - that's about $400 per student. I'm assuming there was some kind of special assessment in 2004 or 2005?

He was talking about the game day experience.  How someone can make the absurd leap from that comment to it's meaning we no longer placed a priority on "the educational experience that promotes the values of fair play and good sportsmanship" is beyond me and frankly it's insulting.  If that were the case how do you explain the GPA of our student athletes exceeding that of the general student body.  How do you explain athletes like Jared Kiesow, an academic all american and Elite 88 and 89 winner, Chris Rosholt an academic all american or Aaron Rusch another academic all american?    With a little research I can name more these are just the ones that come to mind.

UW-WHITEWATER places a high priority on an educational experience that promotes fair play and good sportsmanship.  There is nothing but a single poster's opinion that suggests providing an educational experience that promotes fair play and good sportsmanship and athletic success are mutually exclusive. 

And we don't have a "Jumbotron."      

[Gregory Sager]

The Bills have had five different training camp sites since their inaugural season in 1960, and the latter two have been D3 campuses. Their first two preseason practice sites were at suburban Buffalo hotels. Throughout the '70s they held camp at Niagara University in Niagara Falls, NY, a D1 school. But throughout the '80s and '90s they were at Fredonia State, and since 2000 the Bills have held training camp at St. John Fisher in suburban Rochester.

[ncc58]

He was talking about the game day experience.  How someone can make the absurd leap from that comment to it's meaning we no longer placed a priority on "the educational experience that promotes the values of fair play and good sportsmanship" is beyond me and frankly it's insulting.  If that were the case how do you explain the GPA of our student athletes exceeding that of the general student body.  How do you explain athletes like Jared Kiesow, an academic all american and Elite 88 and 89 winner, Chris Rosholt an academic all american or Aaron Rusch another academic all american?    With a little research I can name more these are just the ones that come to mind.

UW-WHITEWATER places a high priority on an educational experience that promotes fair play and good sportsmanship.  There is nothing but a single poster's opinion that suggests providing an educational experience that promotes fair play and good sportsmanship and athletic success are mutually exclusive. 

And we don't have a "Jumbotron."   

I didn't think that the original comment was saying that UWW had devalued the educational experience, but I can understand if that's how you read it. We don't need to see a full of Academic All American or Academic All Conference players. Most schools have their Academic All Americans, such as UMU's Greg Micheli.

Many schools have programs to ensure that their athletes don't fall behind in their classes. Plinske talks about some of those programs in his UWM interview. It's almost an hour long, but it's an interesting look at Plinske's accomplishments at UWW.

Agreed, UWW doesn't have a Jumbotron. But I believe it still is the biggest scoreboard in a D-3 stadium.

[emma17]

He was talking about the game day experience.  How someone can make the absurd leap from that comment to it's meaning we no longer placed a priority on "the educational experience that promotes the values of fair play and good sportsmanship" is beyond me and frankly it's insulting.  If that were the case how do you explain the GPA of our student athletes exceeding that of the general student body.  How do you explain athletes like Jared Kiesow, an academic all american and Elite 88 and 89 winner, Chris Rosholt an academic all american or Aaron Rusch another academic all american?    With a little research I can name more these are just the ones that come to mind.

UW-WHITEWATER places a high priority on an educational experience that promotes fair play and good sportsmanship.  There is nothing but a single poster's opinion that suggests providing an educational experience that promotes fair play and good sportsmanship and athletic success are mutually exclusive. 

And we don't have a "Jumbotron."   

I didn't think that the original comment was saying that UWW had devalued the educational experience, but I can understand if that's how you read it. We don't need to see a full of Academic All American or Academic All Conference players. Most schools have their Academic All Americans, such as UMU's Greg Micheli.

Many schools have programs to ensure that their athletes don't fall behind in their classes. Plinske talks about some of those programs in his UWM interview. It's almost an hour long, but it's an interesting look at Plinske's accomplishments at UWW.

Agreed, UWW doesn't have a Jumbotron. But I believe it still is the biggest scoreboard in a D-3 stadium.

IL Gator- I think the line "And, with that statement we know that the old DIII justification for football as an educational experience that promotes the values of fair competition and good sportsmanship are no longer of primary importance at UWW" makes it pretty clear what he was intimating. 
IMO, I think it's great that Dr. Plinske wants to create a DI experience at UWW.  The more students and fans in general that attend the games- the better.  I think a full stadium is a great recruiting tool for top DIII talent- and it goes a long way in fund raising to improve all programs.  As an alum, I gladly spread the word of the school and football program with confidence that a player will have a great experience. 

[emma17]

For the discussion of "Are the Purple Powers bad for D3", we've covered a lot of ground.   To summarize-
Reasons they are bad:
1.  Lack of interest come playoff time as it's assumed UWW and Mt will make it. 
2.  Suspicion that one or both are where they are due to... several reasons raised. 
3.  Lack of hope or opportunity for others to knock them off.
Other Reasons?

Reasons they are good:
1.  Their play has raised the level of play in D3.
2.  Competitive championship games are positive for the general public.
3.  National media does pick up on the streak.
4.  Programs that commit to competing on a national level are improving facilities and allocating more funds to football programs, making a better overall experience for D3 football players.
5.  They provide great incentive, hope and excitement for players and programs to be the team to knock them off.
6.  Success with the football program benefits the entire university/college.   
Other Reasons?

IMO, this season in particular has shown that the gap is closing on the two.  Talk of the teams being "untouchable" based on blowouts is a bit overemphasized.  I don't believe that teams like Wesley, NCC, MHB, St. Thomas, Linfield and many others believe the two are untouchable.  The teams I listed in particular know that it's more of an issue of the "little things" than it is of big things to overcome.  For UWW in particular, the Stagg Bowl showed pretty clearly that UWW isn't a team loaded with scholarship type players that somehow ended up in D3.       

[D O.C.]

Applaud summation.

[badgerwarhawk]

IL Gator- I think the line "And, with that statement we know that the old DIII justification for football as an educational experience that promotes the values of fair competition and good sportsmanship are no longer of primary importance at UWW" makes it pretty clear what he was intimating.   

I don't see how you can draw any other conclusion. 

[smedindy]

There are about 6-10 programs who can legitimately say they can compete with one of the Purples. Not win 50% of the time, but compete. Now, of course, it'll be a while before a Wilmington or Marietta will be able to compete with Mt. Union in football, but you know, Northwestern now makes bowls nearly every year and look where they were in the 80's.

[jknezek]

I believe UWW's AD Paul Plinske is on record as saying, "We want to provide our football players, student body, and fans with a Division I experience."  And, with that statement we know that the old DIII justification for football as an educational experience that promotes the values of fair competition and good sportsmanship are no longer of primary importance at UWW.  

Bleh. I don't know how you jump to that conclusion. I will say though, and it was why I was interested in the context of the quote, that it looks like Plinske wants to do something that much of D3 would not be interested in. If you want a D1 experience, be D1. If you want a D3 experience, be D3. There is no reason to spend the time, money and other resources to provide a D1 experience in D3. That's why D3 exists separate from D1.

I think the original post jumped too far off a ledge, as I don't see anything in the quote that goes against fair competition, sportsmanship and academics, but I do think this indicates something about what UWW wants or is willing to provide that sets them well apart from most of D3. Personally, I don't think that's a good thing...

However, D3 allows for anyone to provide a D1 like experience in almost every manner except scholarships. So again, UWW is doing nothing wrong. But if the AD really means what I think the quote implies, I think eventually you will see a D4. It may be 20 or 30 years away, but eventually you will have a set of schools that want something that a critical mass of other schools are unwilling to follow. There is no shame in that, and it is the reason why we have D1, D1 FCS, D2 and D3...

[Pat Coleman]

It may take a while. A very vocal minority managed to get the concept of a fourth division/split in Division III to the floor of the NCAA convention a few years ago and couldn't even muster 30% of the vote.

Over the past decade, Division III has actually spent a lot of time contemplating its differences and trying to find common ground. Some legislation has been passed to that end. I think that effort will continue.

[jknezek]

It may take a while. A very vocal minority managed to get the concept of a fourth division/split in Division III to the floor of the NCAA convention a few years ago and couldn't even muster 30% of the vote.

Over the past decade, Division III has actually spent a lot of time contemplating its differences and trying to find common ground. Some legislation has been passed to that end. I think that effort will continue.

Well, I did say 20 or 30 years. A lot can happen over that kind of timespan. Like most things, it will come down to money. If a large group of schools start investing (yes... investing, not cheating!) a lot of money in athletics in D3, and by a lot I mean a consistently disproportionate amount to most of the D3 universe, friction will develop. If championships continue to get more important, and I do believe athletic championships are gaining importance as recruiting, donation, and brand differentiators, you will eventually get a group that is fed up of running on a treadmill that is either unrealistically or, in their eyes, unnecessarily fast.

Once that happens, momentum will shift quickly. There are already way more D3 schools than any other division. Of the 1066 Active NCAA members, 436 are D3, that is 41%. 30% of 436 gives you a number of schools roughly equal to the amount of teams in D1 FBS OR D1 FCS (130 versus 120 FBS and 122 FCS). You could easily make a D4 just out of those teams, depending on how they were arranged geographically.

Just my belief, but I think either the D3 rules will tighten significantly on what you can spend on facilities, recruiting, roster limits, etc., or I think you will eventually see a D4. Of course, if you ask my wife, I'm usually wrong...

Stats provided come from the Composition & Sport Sponsorship page of the NCAA website...

[smedindy]

I think there's a different mindset for most of the D-3 schools. Compete? Yes. Playoffs and tournaments? Yes. But that's not their A-1 goal. Yes, most schools and teams want to compete and win, but it's not like D-1 where it's bowls and the NCAA tournament or bust. Even low-to-mid majors (like Florida Atlantic where I live) don't think they're successful unless they make the NCAA tourney in hoops. In D-3, I think for the majority of schools, their goals are more modest where an invitation to the playoffs isn't a stinging disappointment.

Again, that's not to say that these D-3 schools and programs don't want to win, and don't want to make the playoffs. They do. But they're not going around firing coaches and booting kids off of the team because of it.