Are the Purple Powers bad for D3?

[jknezek]

Another couple of questions for you:

Is it possible that you could be attaching too much significance to the most recent era (last 7 years of UW-W/Mount and 16 years of Mount) in terms of negative impact on D3?

Do you believe that John's Wooden's UCLA teams (10 national championships in 12 years and 88 game winning streak) were bad for D1 basketball?

If so, college hoops has made a nice recovery. It seems to be pretty popular these days.  I think many people look back and cherish those memories. I would guess that many former players of schools that played against them have cherished memories and great stories of the time they took on "Wooden's UCLA team".  I have never had huge discussions regarding D1 basketball, but i have never heard the argument that Wooden or those UCLA teams were bad for college basketball.  I'm thinking in the middle of that run, not a very high % of teams had a chance to win the national championship.

This is a good example and I wondered when it would come up. There are a couple of things that I think weaken the issue. Mainly the time frame and the strength of basketball in this country. We can easily say that winning 10 or 12 and 88 straight didn't hurt ncaa basketball, but I can as easily point to St. Louis from 59 to 73 and say they buried NCAA soccer by winning or sharing 10 of 14 national titles. The problem is, it ignores the difference in popularity of the sports.

College basketball was already very popular and it is hard to stop that train once it starts, witness the popularity of D1 football despite a myriad of rules violations and poor behavior by schools, players and fans. College soccer and D3 football, on the other hand, are very popular among players, but not so strong in the fan base department. Being so top heavy, I don't believe, helps development of those fan bases.

I'd also point out that Wooden's 88 game winning streak only took 2 complete seasons and two partials. In other words, they were beatable, just not very often. Of the 10 championships they won, they never played the same team twice in the finals. Pretty remarkable. So while there was 1 team at the top, a lot of other teams felt like they would get a chance to knock them off. Right now in D3, there is a different situation. When it was just UMU rolling along and playing different opponents consistently in the Stagg, you had a better analogy. Knocking off one great team is a lot easier than knocking off two in a row.

Still, it is a pretty good argument, except I think it ignores the starting popularity of the sports. Again, it just goes back to what you think is good for D3 overall. From my point of view, it's trying to get more involvement.

[02 Warhawk]

Now, a lot of D-3 schools have significantly upgraded their facilities in the last 5 years or so, but they'll never catch up with UWW or UMU.

Form what I hear, UST has some of the better facilities in the country right now. So saying "never" might be a bit on an exaggeration.

I don't think anyone besides UWW and UMU has the depth to withstand injuries to key players. Heck, Lee Brekke did an outstanding job in the 2010 playoffs for UWW.

I think Brekke did a serviceable job, at best. Coppage and its defense won them the Stagg Bowl that season....not Brekke. If you don't believe me take a look at his playoff numbers last year 

[badgerwarhawk]

Seems like a match made in heaven? I'll give UWO credit, they certainly seemed to be chomping at that bit this year, though I notice they didn't double up on UWW as an NC game as is sometimes done in the WIAC.

Just to clarify that the conference opponents for the nonconference meeting between WIAC schools were determined by the commissioner's office and not the individual opponents.  Neither WW nor UWO had any say in the matter.

Prior to this year you did see some WIAC programs scheduling others because they were unable to find nonconference opponents.  Oshkosh scheduled River Falls for two years (I think it was two)  WW did this and scheduled EauClaire who at the time were a much stronger opponent than Oshkosh.   

[BearcatChatter]

As a West Coast fan, I want to reiterate the common argument that West Coast teams get screwed out of the playoffs every year. Because the selection committe will almost automatically pass up at large bids anywhere west of Minnesota, teams rarely even having a chance to compete in the playoffs unless they're Linfield (who routinely wins conference on an incredibly easy 10-game schedule). But that isn't really the point, more just highlighting the "unlevel playing field" for teams to even have a shot at the playoffs, where I'd venture to say many West coast teams are more deserving than the east coast counterparts they get shafted for.

I've always wondered if UW-W and Mount Union had ever considered a move to either NAIA or Division II. I know size of school is the ultimate deciding factor, but if they really have no competition other than each other at this level, why not go seek bigger fish? They'd have a chance for scholarships, more exposure, etc. Look at European soccer, where the whole idea is to keep moving up divisions. I would hate to think two programs with the traditions like UW-W and Mount Union are complacent crushing teams at the D3 level. Look at University of Sioux Falls, who was destroying any and all competition at the NAIA level. They moved up to DII. Why can't the purple powers do the same, or why don't they want to?

[jknezek]

Seems like a match made in heaven? I'll give UWO credit, they certainly seemed to be chomping at that bit this year, though I notice they didn't double up on UWW as an NC game as is sometimes done in the WIAC.

Just to clarify that the conference opponents for the nonconference meeting between WIAC schools were determined by the commissioner's office and not the individual opponents.  Neither WW nor UWO had any say in the matter.

Prior to this year you did see some WIAC programs scheduling others because they were unable to find nonconference opponents.  Oshkosh scheduled River Falls for two years (I think it was two)  WW did this and scheduled EauClaire who at the time were a much stronger opponent than Oshkosh.   

Didn't know that was how it worked. Thanks.

[badgerwarhawk]

WIAC schools simply do not have the money to go to D2.  As state funded schools they aren't likely to get it anytime soon.  Not many Wisconsin residents want the legislature to appropriate more tax dollars to WIAC schools so they can offer scholarships and participate athletically at a higher level.  Very few, if any, including WW would be able to fund those scholarships through private funding or with the funds they receive from their football programs. 

A  example happened recently at UW-Stevens Point where the chancellor announced that they would explore a Pointers move to D2.  She's no longer the chancellor.  Though her dismissal wasn't directly related to her desire to see the Pointers go D2 the proposal was nearly immediately dismissed.  Beyond her there was absolutely no support for the move either statewide or on their campus.

[02 Warhawk]

I've always wondered if UW-W and Mount Union had ever considered a move to either NAIA or Division II. I know size of school is the ultimate deciding factor, but if they really have no competition other than each other at this level, why not go seek bigger fish? They'd have a chance for scholarships, more exposure, etc. Look at European soccer, where the whole idea is to keep moving up divisions. I would hate to think two programs with the traditions like UW-W and Mount Union are complacent crushing teams at the D3 level. Look at University of Sioux Falls, who was destroying any and all competition at the NAIA level. They moved up to DII. Why can't the purple powers do the same, or why don't they want to?

[AO]

You want me to quantify how many people have the impression that the rest of d3 is intramurals based upon their viewing of the uww/umu stagg bowl?  It's pretty safe to say it's darn near Zero. If you're that dumb, why are you watching the d3 championship in the first place?  The far more likely reaction if this was your first exposure to d3 is to judge d3 based upon what you see rather than what you don't see. 

And there you have it folks! The first person to take a civil discussion and head for insults when they can't come up with answer. That is not what I asked to have quantified. The discussion is about "Are the Purple Powers bad for D3". I can't quantify that they are bad, but I believe they are. You told me since I couldn't quantify it I should give it up. I asked you to quantify the reverse, that they are good for D3 and you reverted to an insult.

I was referring to the guy who thinks d3 football is equivalent to intramurals, not you.  Back to the topic, I just don't think you're thinking logically.  If other teams were winning the stagg bowl, their fans might increase and mount/uww would decrease, but if you were only willing to follow your team if they got to the stagg bowl, are you really a fan of any consequence that's going to stick around next season when they don't make it?  The national media does a lot better job promoting mount and whitewater because they actually know a little bit about these two after this many years, whereas if two others came along they'd have no idea and just the name of the school alone would be enough to make fun of.  The ultimate goal will always be to win the national championship, but in such a big division, I highly doubt most programs have expectations of making it there every 5 or 10 years, and thus they are not disappointed or discouraged from the dominance of UWW/Mount.

[smedindy]

As a West Coast fan, I want to reiterate the common argument that West Coast teams get screwed out of the playoffs every year. Because the selection committe will almost automatically pass up at large bids anywhere west of Minnesota, teams rarely even having a chance to compete in the playoffs unless they're Linfield (who routinely wins conference on an incredibly easy 10-game schedule). But that isn't really the point, more just highlighting the "unlevel playing field" for teams to even have a shot at the playoffs, where I'd venture to say many West coast teams are more deserving than the east coast counterparts they get shafted for.

I've always wondered if UW-W and Mount Union had ever considered a move to either NAIA or Division II. I know size of school is the ultimate deciding factor, but if they really have no competition other than each other at this level, why not go seek bigger fish? They'd have a chance for scholarships, more exposure, etc. Look at European soccer, where the whole idea is to keep moving up divisions. I would hate to think two programs with the traditions like UW-W and Mount Union are complacent crushing teams at the D3 level. Look at University of Sioux Falls, who was destroying any and all competition at the NAIA level. They moved up to DII. Why can't the purple powers do the same, or why don't they want to?

Their entire athletics program would need to move - and their entire athletics program at UW-W and Mt. Union fit into their conferences and D-3.

Again, this is not D-1. You make decisions based on ALL sports, not just football.

[Luv D3]

I gues looking back over the history of the championships, when diff teams where competing in Stagg Bowl, its important to look at HOW many schools were playing D3 football, lets say in 1989. I don't have the answer but I would think it is far less than it is now. So when it comes to recruiting, talent will now ber as watered down. That may be one answer to the many questions. You also can look at some of the schools that won championships or played in the Stagg Bowl, are no longer in D3( Wagner, Dayton) Also Does anyone know how many full time coaches( or grad asst) are on the MU and UWW staff? If you got more guys dedicating there daily lifes to making ABC football team better you will alos have a huuge advantage over the competition. I know most of the NY schools have at most 4 FT guys which includes the head coach, alot of the assistants are teachers that work all day then go to football practice in the afternoon, just as a HS coach would. Just a thought!

[badgerwarhawk]

Also Does anyone know how many full time coaches( or grad asst) are on the MU and UWW staff? coach

None of the UW-W football coaching staff are full time coaches.  All of them have other duties at the university.  In fact I'm not aware of a coaching staff member of any sport at UW-W that doesn't have other duties at the university with the exception of those who are employed outside of the university. 

For kicks a couple of years ago I went to the state employees website to look at the salaries of the WIAC coaches in three higher profile sports (football, basketball, baseball ).  I was shocked at how little they actually earn from their coaching duties.  I can only recall a couple of coaches, none at UW-W, who would be considered full time coaches and I can tell you that without the salary they earn for other duties very few of them would be coaching at this level. 

[HScoach]

As a West Coast fan, I want to reiterate the common argument that West Coast teams get screwed out of the playoffs every year. Because the selection committe will almost automatically pass up at large bids anywhere west of Minnesota, teams rarely even having a chance to compete in the playoffs unless they're Linfield (who routinely wins conference on an incredibly easy 10-game schedule). But that isn't really the point, more just highlighting the "unlevel playing field" for teams to even have a shot at the playoffs, where I'd venture to say many West coast teams are more deserving than the east coast counterparts they get shafted for.

I've always wondered if UW-W and Mount Union had ever considered a move to either NAIA or Division II. I know size of school is the ultimate deciding factor, but if they really have no competition other than each other at this level, why not go seek bigger fish? They'd have a chance for scholarships, more exposure, etc. Look at European soccer, where the whole idea is to keep moving up divisions. I would hate to think two programs with the traditions like UW-W and Mount Union are complacent crushing teams at the D3 level. Look at University of Sioux Falls, who was destroying any and all competition at the NAIA level. They moved up to DII. Why can't the purple powers do the same, or why don't they want to?

A move to NAIA would be a step down.   In regards to moving up to D2, who is paying for the scholarships?  Instead of a bunch of kids paying big $ to attend Mount to play football the school is going to fund them?  Doesn't make sense.

[Pat Coleman]

As a West Coast fan, I want to reiterate the common argument that West Coast teams get screwed out of the playoffs every year. Because the selection committe will almost automatically pass up at large bids anywhere west of Minnesota ...

Just because it's a common argument doesn't mean it's valid. Fact of the matter is, there are only two conferences west of Minnesota to begin with, and neither of them had automatic bids for the entire 13-year run of the 28/32-team playoff system.

In fact, *every* playoff bid the NWC got before 2008  was an *at-large* bid because the conference did not have an automatic bid.

[emma17]

The ghost of Christmas future has showed up and we fast forward to Semi-final weekend 2012.  UWW is playing Linfield and Mt is playing NCC. The Mt game ends an hour earlier and NCC wins (it's just a dream).
The view moves to the NCC locker room as players are watching the UWW finish. We zoom in to hear the conversations as players discuss who they'd rather play.
Dollars to donuts NCC players are pulling for UWW to win. What can be sweeter than beating the dynasty?
I don't pretend this scenario proves either side of the debate, but if we spend a little time thinking from the player's perspective rather than ours, I don't believe they view Mt v UWW as bad for DIII. The playing field itself is entirely level as are the hours in a day available to all.

[zach]

As a West Coast fan, I want to reiterate the common argument that West Coast teams get screwed out of the playoffs every year. Because the selection committe will almost automatically pass up at large bids anywhere west of Minnesota, teams rarely even having a chance to compete in the playoffs unless they're Linfield (who routinely wins conference on an incredibly easy 10-game schedule). But that isn't really the point, more just highlighting the "unlevel playing field" for teams to even have a shot at the playoffs, where I'd venture to say many West coast teams are more deserving than the east coast counterparts they get shafted for.

I've always wondered if UW-W and Mount Union had ever considered a move to either NAIA or Division II. I know size of school is the ultimate deciding factor, but if they really have no competition other than each other at this level, why not go seek bigger fish? They'd have a chance for scholarships, more exposure, etc. Look at European soccer, where the whole idea is to keep moving up divisions. I would hate to think two programs with the traditions like UW-W and Mount Union are complacent crushing teams at the D3 level. Look at University of Sioux Falls, who was destroying any and all competition at the NAIA level. They moved up to DII. Why can't the purple powers do the same, or why don't they want to?

Their entire athletics program would need to move - and their entire athletics program at UW-W and Mt. Union fit into their conferences and D-3.

Again, this is not D-1. You make decisions based on ALL sports, not just football.

Wisconsin-Whitewater's athletic program
Football- 7 straight Stagg Bowls
Basketball- #16 in the nation
Baseball- lost in world series,ended ranked 3rd
Men's Soccer- Lost in first round of NCAA's
Wrestling- 18th in nation
Women's soccer- Lost in 3rd round of NCAA's
Softball-Lost in NCAA regionals
Women's Volleyball- Lost in NCAA regionals.

I think they have a good enough program overal to be D-2.