Title IX: Good, Good, but..., or Bad

[Pat Coleman]

AO: http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=6153.0
Why are there pictures/stories of women on the front page of D3hoops?

... that was the thread I was referring to in the other conversation.

[Knightstalker]

Would we have developed women's sports without Title IX?  is there any evidence of some great sexist collusion among administrators who tried to keep women from representing their school athletically?  Who would cut women's programs if title IX was eliminated today?

If you remember the 60's and 70's, it was bleak. My sister had no organized athletics in high school. The NCAA didn't even start sponsoring the women's basketball tournament until their hand was forced by the AIAW. Indiana had no organized high school sports for girls until 1975 and without title IX, who knows when it would have happened.

I also remember the late 60's and early 70's and girls in NJ had plenty of opportunities to compete.  My high school had football for the boys and field hockey for the girls (one of the best hs field hockey programs in the state) and cross-country for both.  Winter had wrestling (the big sport at Warren Hills) boys and girls basketball.  Spring was Baseball, Softball and Track and Field for both.  They added boys soccer in 78 and girls soccer in 80 or 81. 

In the late 30's and early 40's my mother was limited to intramural girls basketball (6 players per side and the guards couldn't cross half-court) and intramural softball by the 50's that had changed in NJ.  I have to admit when I was a little kid and learning how to play baseball my dad taught me to throw and field but mom taught me to hit.  Mom was a good hitter, having four older brothers helped her out with baseball.

[smedindy]

But NJ was an outlier, Knightstalker.

[Ralph Turner]

I have a picture of my maternal grandmother, who taught school before she married, coaching girls' 3-a-side, 6-woman basketball, to her pupils in a cotton field 70 miles west of Abilene in 1921.

In my high school in the mid 1960's, women's volleyball, basketball and track were big.  The head cheerleader lettered in 3 sports. I cannot remember if we had tennis for both men and women. The guys only had golf.  No cross country for either yet in the 1960's.

I remember that the University Interscholastic League offered championships in several girls sports in Texas when I was growing up in the 1960's. It was a mixed bag tho', but I can remember some women's teams in west Texas that were every bit as good as the men in basketball (if you called the game in pure "Naismithian" style).  The Wayland Baptist Flying Queens were a powerhouse in Women's AAU and AIAW.

[Jonny Utah]

Opportunity and equity are the two main focuses of title 9.  In the back of my mind though, I have this issue of men simply being more interested in sports from an early age.  Surely there are women who have strived to compete at early ages in various sports, but as children, how often do you see females organize playground sports on their own?  How many hours of basketball (from pickup games, shooting by yourself, etc) does your average college male ball player compare to your female ball player?  Does the female ball player deserve the same at the highest level?

Now maybe we can say that boys have role models to look up too that females don't at an early age?  I mean we all realize that there is difference between males and females and that is why we have separate teams, but in the end people want to see the best human beings compete regardless of gender.  At the youth level, why do adults set up leagues for our sons and daughters?  Because of their interest?  Our interest? 

[smedindy]

My girls love sports camp and soccer. Girls sports in Minnesota are huge. And they deserve every dollar of support.

And I've seen plenty of girls around in pickup games and working on their games on their own. But I don't see as many pickup games as I did back when I was a kid, because of the way society is now.

Also some of the most compelling sporting events I've seen have been women's team sports.

[smedindy]

Ralph, were they sanctioned state tournaments for girls back in the 60's or were they loosely organized?

Also, was it actual hoops or the 6-player hybrid?

[Jonny Utah]

My girls love sports camp and soccer. Girls sports in Minnesota are huge. And they deserve every dollar of support.

And I've seen plenty of girls around in pickup games and working on their games on their own. But I don't see as many pickup games as I did back when I was a kid, because of the way society is now.

Also some of the most compelling sporting events I've seen have been women's team sports.

Plenty?  How many adult men's or women's basketball or softball leagues do you see?  What do you see boys and girls do on their own during a 5th, 6th, 7th grade recess? 

I'm a big basketball guy and have been playing at local boston parks over most of my adult life at probably 100 different parks.  I've never seen a girls or women's pickup game.  I've played with plenty of girls and have seen many play, but males by far show a much greater interest in sports and playing sports.

I'm not saying that's a reason to deprive women of opportunities, but there is something there.

[smedindy]

Not as many as men, but women's softball is quite popular in some quarters. I know my hometown had, at some point, 40 women's softball teams.

Plenty of girls in Indiana hoop. Indiana has a bunch of girl gym-rats. It may be an urban, Eastern thing you're describing and not necessarily a cross-section of the entire country. Girls weren't part of the urban park basketball culture for the most part - they were part of the organized gym culture. Doesn't mean they're not as interested, just a different dimension.

My daughters in MN tend to get into kickball or dodgeball games at recess. Of course, in the winter everyone is sledding during recess or something similar.

I do think that it's becoming less and less of a prevalent thing for unorganized sports to spring up.

[hoopstermom]

When I was kid growing up, I didn't know what Title IX was, I only know that as an elementary, middle and high school girl, I did not have a plethora of options (as are offered today) to play organized competitive sports through my public school system or in the community. In my high school, girl's sports options were basketball, tennis and track. Softball was added my senior year. College options were tennis, basketball, hockey or lacrosse.

I did play in plenty of sandlot pick-up football games, baseball, and basketball games with the guys and was often picked over many other guys in the neighborhood when teams were chosen, but when school teams were formed I was left out.  The 1969 little league team from my neighborhood went to the Little League world series in Williamsport.  One of the dads in the neighborhood coached one of the LL teams from which the guys were selected, and he often told me he wished I could play for his team. I could unofficially play and practice with the guys, but could not officially be part of the team.  No LL girls baseball or softball teams then.  There was no AAU sports options for girls when I was a young teenager either, so I played on an ASA women's travel softball team.  So all I can say is that if it was title IX that got us to where we are today with the number of options for girls and young women that are now available, then I have to say it's a good thing. 

That said, I don't like the idea of men's teams having to be shut down because there are not equal numbers of women interested in competing at the same school.  I don't know what the fair balance is, but I'd hate to go back to exactly the way things were before Title IX.

Just one old lady's perspective here who experienced pre Title IX and is fortunate to see the impact the Title IX has made on girls/women's athletics in this country.

[Mr. Ypsi]

hoopstermom, thanks for the personal account.  You came along just barely too soon as a federal lawsuit forced LL to open up in 1974.  I'm proud to say that Ypsilanti played a role in that!

In 1973, Carolyn King was easily selected as a starter for her LL team.  Williamsport, as was their standard practice at the time, threatened to revoke the LL charter (for the entire league) if she played.  The Ypsi city council, by a unanimous 10-0 vote, told the league they would not be allowed to use public baseball diamonds if Carolyn did NOT play.  The league (to their undying credit) let Carolyn play, and filed a federal lawsuit against LL.  While accounts of the decision most often refer to Maria Pepe of Hoboken (who had filed suit a year earlier; like many federal suits, the eventual decision merged many individual suits into one), Carolyn King and Ypsilanti definitely played their role.

Alas, as often happens with slow-moving lawsuits, the protagonists themselves received no direct benefit - both Maria and Carolyn had aged out of LL by the time of the decision.  I'm happy to report that Carolyn's daughters played LL baseball (NOT softball)!

Ypsi has two LLs - American and National.  Carolyn's league (American) always played an all-star game against the Nationals, but since the Nationals had no girls and retained their charter, they 'chickened out' at the threat of also losing their charter in 1973.  Since many of the kids remained in Ypsi, there was banter for years on who would have won the all-star game that year.  The alums finally played a couple of years ago, but since all were now 50-ish, I doubt anything was settled!  (But, reportedly, everyone had a great time, and consumed far more beer than [hopefully] would have happened in 1973. )

[Knightstalker]

We didn't have sanctioned little league in our town growing up.  We had what we called the farm league.  We had girls playing (mostly as fill in players when only seven or eight would show up for games (it was tough sometimes to get all the farm kids during the spring planting season).  I used to love playing first base when Amy was playing third, she had one of the best infielder arms in the league and she was a hell of a lead off hitter.  She went on to be an all conference field hockey and softball player in HS.

[AO]

Do the title IX apologists have a problem with little league today?  How did the argument in the 70s move from, "equal opportunity to tryout for the baseball team to demanding that a separate girls only softball team be created and supported by the football/basketball teams"?  2.5 Million boys play little league baseball, while only 360,000 girls play in their softball division.  Is there any denying that boys are more interested in sports than girls?  Who out there would deny girls a chance to play today when there's enough interest, title IX or not?

[smedindy]

There are a lot of other softball leagues that aren't sanctioned by Little League, AO. Many of those sprung up independently, whilst LL has had a 50-year jump on them. So that's not relevant at all.

So as a percentage girls aren't as interested in sports as boys? Big deal. Does that mean they don't deserve opportunity? "Sorry, we need a 10th assistant coach for football so no girls cross-country..."

[AO]

There are a lot of other softball leagues that aren't sanctioned by Little League, AO. Many of those sprung up independently, whilst LL has had a 50-year jump on them. So that's not relevant at all.

So as a percentage girls aren't as interested in sports as boys? Big deal. Does that mean they don't deserve opportunity? "Sorry, we need a 10th assistant coach for football so no girls cross-country..."

I'm sure there are other softball leagues, but there are also other baseball leagues.  We have pretty clear evidence both anecdotal about not seeing female play pick up games in parks or gyms and the reality of youth participation numbers.  Boys and girls are different.  It's ok.

The percentages matter quite a bit when they're a part of title IX. 

Cross country can survive on its own without football money.  It does so just fine at most high schools and d3s that don't get much profit from their football program.