BB: Top Teams in West Region

[tigerfan_2001]

Does the Pool C bids come from the West or does the West get shutout and Pool C's fly in from other regions 

I think two teams get shipped in if there are any upsets in this weekend's conf tournaments. 

[108 Stitches]

I think you are right Tigerfan. GF did not do themselves a favor by dropping 3 to Linfield, not that they just lost but in two games they got blown out. UTT would likely get a bid if they lose, which is not likely. Looking at the "PoolC" thread it looks like TLU is toast.

Correction, just saw that UTT won the ASC so it looks like two teams will likely get shipped in...now which two?

[TexasBB]

 

I am so totally against shipping teams into this regional. We have the most spread out regional and very light representation as it is. To say that there are only 4 teams in the entire region deserving of a chance to complete for the national championship is a pure insult to all the conferences and all the teams. I am from Texas and don't follow the California and Northwest conferences as closely. But I do know a little about the ASC. We have a diverse group of schools scattered from Mississippi to West Texas. Texas Lutheran did not fare as well as they had wished but they still had a very fine record. The ASC championship lasted two weekends and they finished 3-2 in the tournamnent. In the final round they spit with Louisiana College and lost to UTT. But they still won 33 games this year and won 30 of those in the West Region. P-P and George Fox had good seasons this year as well. Not quite as good as TLU from a total regional record but worthy of consideration and probably tougher schedules. So I would hope that 2 of those 3 make it. I will be upset if they don't.

[Teddy_Ballgame]

I think you are right Tigerfan. GF did not do themselves a favor by dropping 3 to Linfield, not that they just lost but in two games they got blown out. UTT would likely get a bid if they lose, which is not likely. Looking at the "PoolC" thread it looks like TLU is toast.

Correction, just saw that UTT won the ASC so it looks like two teams will likely get shipped in...now which two?

If you look at George Fox's in-region record and SOS, I think they stack up pretty well against other Pool C contenders from around the country. They will also leap frog a few of those schools that lose two games in conference tournaments this weekend. I think ultimately, they are probably among the last three Pool C's in- unless there are a ton of surprise Pool A qualifiers this coming weekend. The biggest strike against them is the 1-5 record against regionally ranked teams, but bear in mind that those six games are against the top two teams in the region. It's unfortunate for them that Concordia, UT Dallas, La Verne, and Redlands all had disappointing seasons because sweeping those teams in Arizona was a great start and could have added some balance to the record against regionally ranked opponents.

[Teddy_Ballgame]

I am so totally against shipping teams into this regional. We have the most spread out regional and very light representation as it is. To say that there are only 4 teams in the entire region deserving of a chance to complete for the national championship is a pure insult to all the conferences and all the teams. I am from Texas and don't follow the California and Northwest conferences as closely. But I do know a little about the ASC. We have a diverse group of schools scattered from Mississippi to West Texas. Texas Lutheran did not fare as well as they had wished but they still had a very fine record. The ASC championship lasted two weekends and they finished 3-2 in the tournamnent. In the final round they spit with Louisiana College and lost to UTT. But they still won 33 games this year and won 30 of those in the West Region. P-P and George Fox had good seasons this year as well. Not quite as good as TLU from a total regional record but worthy of consideration and probably tougher schedules. So I would hope that 2 of those 3 make it. I will be upset if they don't.

I agree with you to a point. The West seems to have a comparatively high quality in their upper/middle of the conference teams- George Fox, Pac Lu, PP, Redlands, La Verne, Chapman, Texas Lutheran, Louisiana, Concordia, UT Dallas, Centenary, etc. Basically, most of the West region conferences have a bevy of teams that can steal games and come out and beat someone on any given day. But it's tough finding more than 4 or 5 teams in the conference that really stand out. Everyone else just beats up on each other because the talent is well distributed. 

Throw in other factors- the Cal Techs/Southwesterns destroying SOS numbers, geographic isolation, etc it makes it difficult to find any quantitative means of defending teams from the West against other teams in the Pool C discussion. But using the SCIAC as an example, there's a pretty compelling argument that the West is underrated and underrepresented.
Ithaca (New York #1) was 1-3 against SCIAC teams
Kean (Mid-Atlantic #1) was 2-3 against SCIAC teams
Bridgewater (South #4) was 1-3 against SCIAC teams

Bear in mind that PP and CLU only contributed two wins to those numbers and only Cal Tech isn't represented in those games. All three out of region teams had fewer games played than their SCIAC opponents, but all still had at least four games under their belts to get the kinks out.

I'm not sure if there was much else by way of West vs the rest competition this year... but I'll try to look into it.

[Ralph Turner]

Let's be honest about the Ithaca and Kean games.  They were spring training games 3,000 miles and 3 time zones away from home against mid-season teams playing on their own fields.

I think that Kean and Ithaca did pretty well.

[Whatagame]

Let's be honest about the Ithaca and Kean games.  They were spring training games 3,000 miles and 3 time zones away from home against mid-season teams playing on their own fields.

I think that Kean and Ithaca did pretty well.

This issue of the West Region potentially having no Pool C's, etc. is an interesting issue relative to the overall standing of D3 athletics in the West that I believe has been discussed in detail on these boards, possibly in the football section.  California and Texas, and to a lesser extent, the Pacific Northwest are absolute hotbeds of baseball talent.  Typically, there are more high school MLB draftees from California and Texas than any other state, with Florida also in the running.  Additionally, there are far more highly skilled high school players than there are D1 and D2 roster spots in these regions, particularly California.  Thus, you see a ton of California players on D1 rosters throughout the country.

Given this glut of D1 talent, it follows that there would also be a glut of D3 talent in these states.

Contrast this glut of talent with the scarcity of D3 schools in CA, OR, WA and TX.  Add to that, there are zero D3 baseball program in AZ, CO, etc., and you would think that most every D3 program in the West would be absolutely loaded with talent, as there are so many players potentially vying for so few squads.

You watch any high quality Southern California high school baseball game, and you'll likely see a small handful of guys (the impact players who are not draft picks or D1 guys) that you'll think could be solid to high impact D3 players – but so many of them, in fact the vast majority, do not play D3 baseball.

However, in the Midwest, East and Northeast, where there are so many more D3 baseball schools per-capita, and "per available talent", it seems, those regions frankly seem to field stronger overall regions and teams.  I'm certain there are a lot of dynamics to this, but I think a large component is that D3 baseball lacks a "BRAND" in the West, relative to capturing the mindshare and interest of high percentages of high quality high school players.  I think this pertains not only to D3 baseball, but football and basketball in the West as well.

My net-net is, given the amount of high school baseball talent in the West Region, there should be no reason for at least 8 West region teams every year, to be strong enough to qualify for a regional bid.  The only reason I can really see is that simply not enough of those players choose "D3" in comparison to other regions.

[dahlby]

There is much talent in the SoCal area. But, with at least 50 D1, D2, NAIA and JC schools vying for the talent, it does get dilluted quickly.

[Whatagame]

There is much talent in the SoCal area. But, with at least 50 D1, D2, NAIA and JC schools vying for the talent, it does get dilluted quickly.

Relative to D3, I think the JC's and just "not playing" after HS are the biggest competition. 

[Teddy_Ballgame]

Let's be honest about the Ithaca and Kean games.  They were spring training games 3,000 miles and 3 time zones away from home against mid-season teams playing on their own fields.

I think that Kean and Ithaca did pretty well.

I understand that. But I can tell you it's not that big a disadvantage. Certainly not enough to excuse going 1-3 or 2-3 against 4 different SCIAC teams. If they were only playing PP and CLU, that would be one thing. But between those two teams, they played 6 different SCIAC teams and not one of them was Cal Lu.

I played on a PP team that was ranked first in the country, in the middle of our season going into a game against Middlebury. It was their first game of the season, and day on an outdoor field. They won the first game of the doubleheader. Ultimately, it's all baseball. Teams may have kinks to work out, but you can't tell me that anyone on the field is treating the game any differently than if it were in the middle or end of the season. And they may not get as much outdoor time, but they're not sitting on their butts either. Would Ithaca and Kean go 3-6 against that schedule right now? Probably not. But given where they are ranked, it would be reasonable to expect the best team in a particular region to go 6-3 or 7-2 against a schedule of teams centered in the middle of another region. And there's no way there's a 3 or 4 game swing from March to May.

Also, Bridgewater was well into their season when they went 1-3.

[TexasBB]

Many of the DIII schools, at least in Texas, have a bunch of JC transfers and some DI and DII transfers as well. Remember JC is just 2 years. Traditionally the ASC has recrutied many second year JUCO players. With only 11.7 scholarships to spread around some of the DI players are not receiving much and not playing as much as they would like. A DIII school can attract them with more playing time. A school like UT Tyler has an advantage in that area since it is a State University that typically has offered academic aid to Juco transfers. Being a State school it is not as expensive as the private schools. (Same is true with UT Dallas). When my son went to UT Tyler a few years ago almost 1/2 the roster were transfers in. One of the big attractions was playing time as well as being seen by scouts if they wanted to continue to play after college which some do every year in the independent minor leagues. So dilution is not as big of an issue as you might think. What the DIII teams don't get are the best HS players or even the middle tier at least not at first. Many kids will opt for the JUCO route as it keeps them draft eligible and many sitll harbor thoughts of playing for a top tier D1 program. Once reality sets in they then aim for the nest best and in many cases that is DIII. Its all about recruiting and selling your program.

TexasBB

[Teddy_Ballgame]

Looked at West region conference schedules (apparently I'm pretty bored today) to see the overall numbers against out-of-region opponents. Off the bat, I'll say that there are probably too few games to be statistically significant and there are a lot of factors to consider- namely that most of these are at the West region team's home field or a neutral site and there are often differences in how far into the season each team is. And the NWC is hurt because only Lewis and Clark played those kinds of games. But still interesting to look at.

SCIAC: 18-11 against non-region D3 opponents.
Cal Tech didn't play any of those games, and the breakdown was 6 vs Rutgers, 5 vs Kean, 4 vs Bridgewater, 4 vs Ithaca, 3 vs North Park, 2 against Gust. Adolphus, and one each against Wisc La Cross, Wisc. Superior, Luther, and Macalester. Pretty good selection of teams, and the games were well distributed amongst the SCIAC schools.

ASC: I may have missed some but I counted 9-3 vs non region D3 opponents.
4-0 against Huntingdon (Mississippi College 3-0, Ozarks 1-0) who is 1st in the South Regional rankings
2-1 vs DeSales (wins for UMHB and TLU, loss for Schreiner) who had over 30 wins playing in the Mid Atlantic region.
Other opponents were Wheaton (1-2 vs TLU), Iowa Wesleyan, and Wartburg.
*I'm guessing there were probably more South region teams on the schedule that I missed and I welcome anyone to correct my numbers.

NWC: it looks like the only non region D3 games all came from Lewis and Clark who went 3-5 in Arizona with wins against Iowa Wesleyan, Wesleyan (Conn.), and St. John's (Minn.) and losses against Wartburg (2), Middlebury, Williams, and St. Johns.

SCAC teams went 4-2 vs non region D3 opponents. Trinity was 4-1 (1-0 vs DeSales, 3-1 vs Rockford), Centenary 0-1 (North Central).

Add it all up and the West region went 34-21 against all other regions. And overall, those games were against pretty high quality opponents. But does that number mean anything? Well maybe not a whole lot given all the factors mentioned previously, but I do think it counts for something.

[Teddy_Ballgame]

Add it all up and the West region went 34-21 against all other regions. And overall, those games were against pretty high quality opponents. But does that number mean anything? Well maybe not a whole lot given all the factors mentioned previously, but I do think it counts for something.

And for those of you wondering what the West has done against non-region opponents when it matters, the West has a total record of 28-26 in the D3 World series since 2000- many thanks to Chapman. That includes Championships in 2003 (Chapman) and 2004 (George Fox). A .519 winning percentage and two championships in 13 years is just barely above average. The most titles for a region during that timespan is 3, by the Midwest (St. Thomas x2, UW Whitewater), and the Mid East (Marietta x3).

[historymajor]

Teddy... wrong Trinity/ wrong Centenary.  Trinity went 3-4 and Centenary (transitioning from D1) is in West anyway.  New SCAC member from Shreveport, LA

[Ralph Turner]

 

Teddy... wrong Trinity/ wrong Centenary.  Trinity went 3-4 and Centenary (transitioning from D1) is in West anyway.  New SCAC member from Shreveport, LA

Another case of East Coast bias...

Ba-da-bum