BB: Top Teams in West Region

[forheavendial4999]

I would propose an argument to CrashDavis that wouldn't it behoove a competitive West Region team to recruit and and develop as deep a pitching staff as possible, on par with any team in the nation, regardless of how the schedules differ between West and East, Mid West, Northeast?  The old adage in baseball is that "you can never have too much pitching"

What particularly comes to mind is the wealth of two way talent (utility players) that resides in So Cal for a team like Chapman to draw from.

Exactly. Nothing is stopping them from using a deeper pitching staff or scheduling a compressed set of games to test it.

The ASC, SCIAC and NWC tourneys aren't any more of a disadvantage than a conference tourney is for a lot of other leagues. If a team is good enough they get a Pool C anyway and bounce back from a conference tourney disappointment. There have been several teams that lost their conference tourney that went on to win the national championship.

[CrashDavisD3]

I would propose an argument to CrashDavis that wouldn't it behoove a competitive West Region team to recruit and and develop as deep a pitching staff as possible, on par with any team in the nation, regardless of how the schedules differ between West and East, Mid West, Northeast?  The old adage in baseball is that "you can never have too much pitching"

What particularly comes to mind is the wealth of two way talent (utility players) that resides in So Cal for a team like Chapman to draw from.

Exactly. Nothing is stopping them from using a deeper pitching staff or scheduling a compressed set of games to test it.

The ASC, SCIAC and NWC tourneys aren't any more of a disadvantage than a conference tourney is for a lot of other leagues. If a team is good enough they get a Pool C anyway and bounce back from a conference tourney disappointment. There have been several teams that lost their conference tourney that went on to win the national championship.

ASC, SCAC have conference tourneys. SCIAC, NWC does not.

In the West it would be near impossible to schedule a compressed schedule because it will be difficult to schedule schools who will not play a compressed schedule due to academics. SCIAC and SCAC conference come to mind. Coaches in the West win with their best 3 pitchers as starters and it gets them to the Regionals and even win the Regionals but hurts trying to win a  National Championship since they run out of arms by the last day or next to last day

[ILVBB]

It is not possible to schedule a compresses schedule in large part because of logisitics. The SoCal schools play each other repeatedly, the NW schools play each other repeatedly. The logitics in Texas makes it virtually impossible to schedule any kind of compress schedule when it is trips can be anywhere from 2 hours to 14 hours. Because of logisitics, the west is logisticly as big as 3-4 other regions combined when you start think about building a "regional schedule."

Everyone has to adjust. The northern teams have to adjust because of weather. The western teams adjust becuase of logistics.

[forheavendial4999]

I would propose an argument to CrashDavis that wouldn't it behoove a competitive West Region team to recruit and and develop as deep a pitching staff as possible, on par with any team in the nation, regardless of how the schedules differ between West and East, Mid West, Northeast?  The old adage in baseball is that "you can never have too much pitching"

What particularly comes to mind is the wealth of two way talent (utility players) that resides in So Cal for a team like Chapman to draw from.

Exactly. Nothing is stopping them from using a deeper pitching staff or scheduling a compressed set of games to test it.

The ASC, SCIAC and NWC tourneys aren't any more of a disadvantage than a conference tourney is for a lot of other leagues. If a team is good enough they get a Pool C anyway and bounce back from a conference tourney disappointment. There have been several teams that lost their conference tourney that went on to win the national championship.

ASC, SCAC have conference tourneys. SCIAC, NWC does not.

Fair enough, but point remains. There's as much or more competition in other leagues. Considering by far the best program in the West is an independent, it's really hard to figure out why West region fans have such an inflated view of the region's quality.

In the West it would be near impossible to schedule a compressed schedule because it will be difficult to schedule schools who will not play a compressed schedule due to academics.

They could play the same schedule the eastern teams play when they come west...same number of games in the same days. Nothing stopping them.

SCIAC and SCAC conference come to mind. Coaches in the West win with their best 3 pitchers as starters and it gets them to the Regionals and even win the Regionals but hurts trying to win a  National Championship since they run out of arms by the last day or next to last day

Again, nothing stopping them from running another guy out there and giving them some experience. The SCAC is such a weak league that any team that is regional caliber should be able to win with their down the line pitching over some of those teams anyway.

[infielddad]

I would propose an argument to CrashDavis that wouldn't it behoove a competitive West Region team to recruit and and develop as deep a pitching staff as possible, on par with any team in the nation, regardless of how the schedules differ between West and East, Mid West, Northeast?  The old adage in baseball is that "you can never have too much pitching"

What particularly comes to mind is the wealth of two way talent (utility players) that resides in So Cal for a team like Chapman to draw from.

George Fox proved you don't need pitching depth to win the CWS.
If a coaching staff is willing to ride the arm of the best pitcher in all of D3, no matter what the risks, a team can win with lesser pitching depth.
Whether other coaching staffs would be willing to ride the risk is at the focus of the issue, in my view.
Again, I fully realize some on the site say Appleton is "THE" proof.
I don't.
Appleton is a great reward but it just isn't the 8 best teams playing there each year. All are plenty good and no one can take that away.
The best 8...not in my view

[Whatagame]

I guess I argue the compressed schedule, or lack there of, is somewhat irrelevant concerning the recruitment and development of players on a roster that can come into games and throw 5 to 6 quality innings, and a bullpen that can support the starter.

I pose a larger question.  I believe that D3 Baseball possibly lacks the "brand" that it might have in the East, Northeast and Mid West, which leads to fewer skilled players from the area playing D3.  Thoughts?

[Ralph Turner]

I guess I argue the compressed schedule, or lack there of, is somewhat irrelevant concerning the recruitment and development of players on a roster that can come into games and throw 5 to 6 quality innings, and a bullpen that can support the starter.

I pose a larger question.  I believe that D3 Baseball possibly lacks the "brand" that it might have in the East, Northeast and Mid West, which leads to fewer skilled players from the area playing D3.  Thoughts?

I think that the East, Northeast and Midwest teams have less competition at the D-2 and NJCAA levels for talent than we have in the South and West, especially.  I believe that "D-2 and quality "NJCAA/D-1or D2" talent "falls" to D-3 up north.

Three high quality baseball conferences are the NJAC, the Little East and the WIAC. Those state schools have quality programs. It is probably harder for a northern D-2 school to have a quality baseball program than any other sport.  So talent that doesn't get a (partial baseball) scholarship down south, paying partial out-of-state tuition, can stay in Wisconsin, New Jersey or Connecticut and play great ball.  The season warms up in March thru May with collegiate ball, and they just play thru the summer in the wooden bat leagues.

Baseball is "king" in the south and southwest and west.

[forheavendial4999]

Ralph's hit on something I've thought about, but I don't know if ultimately I think it's right or not.

When I lived in South Carolina, I knew of really good players that didn't play college ball at all. The talent there is so deep compared to up north. I'm interested to see what the future holds for Birmingham Southern, a program I think is well positioned to take advantage of that depth.

It's true that D-II champions or even close to champions from up north are pretty rare, but I think the overall depth of the talent pool in the south might make up for that. But then it might not.

[infielddad]

Ralph knows D3 and baseball in the South and West, for sure.
In Northern CA., we have no D3 programs.
JC's end up with upwards of 100 players who tryout.
DII is huge and with programs like CSU Chico and CSU Sonoma State, one or the other is playing for the D2 National Championship nearly every year.
So many players think they are DI.  In many areas of the Country they are.
In Northern CA., many get cut from a JC or DII due to the level of competition.
D3 is not in the equation.
In New England, D3 proliferates and the academics can be a huge attraction.
To support Ralph, many of those cuts at a California JC or DII would be wonderful D3 players.
However, once they are cut, they stop.
Often times the same issue exists  in Texas where JC and DII are huge.
While Texas has wonderful D3 schools and baseball, the JC  and DII players who get cut don't end up transferring for many reasons, some of which involve the academics.
As Ralph said, geographics plays a major role in this discussion.
Honestly, in California, many players would be wonderful D3 players.
For many reasons they don't find D3 an attractive option.
When there are schools like all those in New England, New Jersey, Wisconsin, Minnesota which attract so well locally, "attraction" is just different.

[Ralph Turner]

Let me share this news release from the NCBWA. These are the attendance reports, by total fans and by attendance per game.

Baseball is "king" in the west and south.

2012 Division I Baseball Attendance Compiled by Tami Cutler, Wichita State Athletic Media Relations

Report #7 — 4/2/12
By Average (min. 1,200)
School Avg. Total #
1. LSU 10,496 241,408 23
2. Arkansas 7,740 147,074 19
3. South Carolina 7,392 133,071 18
4. Ole Miss 7,321 153,750 21
5. Mississippi State 5,968 107,433 18
6. Texas 5,940 59,400 10
7. Florida State 4,622 83,202 18
8. Clemson 4,545 81,814 18
9. TCU 4,439 53,272 12
10. Texas A&M 4,247 101,936 24
11. Florida 3,696 66,545 18
12. Southern Miss 3,488 52,329 15
13. Alabama 3,451 51,775 15
14. Rice 3,306 59,522 18
15. Hawaii 3,175 69,858 22
16. Nebraska 3,021 51,367 17
17. Auburn 2,856 57,127 20
18. Virginia 2,850 51,305 18
19. East Carolina 2,825 48,029 17
20. Tulane 2,803 50,463 18
21. Texas Tech 2,768 47,068 17
22. Baylor 2,734 54,697 20
23. Miami, Fla. 2,709 51,471 19
24. Wichita State 2,675 56,177 21
25. Creighton 2,357 18,860 8
26. Vanderbilt 2,238 44,773 20
27. Louisiana-Lafayette 2,211 26,539 12
28. Stanford 2,150 30,101 14
29. Arizona 2,114 46,515 22
30. Georgia 1,992 47,824 24
31. Arizona State 1,978 29,678 15
32. Tennessee 1,778 37,340 21
33. Fresno State 1,694 35,583 21
Cal State Fullerton 1,694 28,800 17
35. Louisiana-Monroe 1,670 26,733 16
36. New Mexico 1,565 28,176 18
37. Kentucky 1,521 28,906 19
38. UCF 1,451 31,940 22
39. Oregon 1,432 18,622 13
40. Texas State 1,396 22,336 16
41. Georgia Tech 1,371 21,946 16
42. Georgia Southern 1,352 20,284 15
43. South Alabama 1,336 17,370 13
44. Oregon State 1,297 12,977 10
45. Troy 1,255 16,319 13


Total
School Avg. Total #
1. LSU 10,496 241,408 23
2. Ole Miss 7,321 153,750 21
3. Arkansas 7,740 147,074 19
4. South Carolina 7,392 133,071 18
5. Mississippi State 5,968 107,433 18
6. Texas A&M 4,247 101,936 24
7. Florida State 4,622 83,202 18
8. Clemson 4,545 81,814 18
9. Hawaii 3,175 69,858 22
10. Florida 3,696 66,545 18
11. Rice 3,306 59,522 18
12. Texas 5,940 59,400 10
13. Auburn 2,856 57,127 20
14. Wichita State 2,675 56,177 21
15. Baylor 2,734 54,697 20
16. TCU 4,439 53,272 12
17. Southern Miss 3,488 52,329 15
18. Alabama 3,451 51,775 15
19. Miami, Fla. 2,709 51,471 19
20. Nebraska 3,021 51,367 17
21. Virginia 2,850 51,305 18
22. Tulane 2,803 50,463 18
23. East Carolina 2,825 48,029 17
24. Georgia 1,992 47,824 24
25. Texas Tech 2,768 47,068 17
26. Arizona 2,114 46,515 22
27. Vanderbilt 2,238 44,773 20
28. Tennessee 1,778 37,340 21
29. Fresno State 1,694 35,583 21
30. UCF 1,451 31,940 22
31. Stanford 2,150 30,101 14
32. Arizona State 1,978 29,678 15
33. Kentucky 1,521 28,906 19
34. Cal State Fullerton 1,694 28,800 17
35. New Mexico 1,565 28,176 18
36. Louisiana-Monroe 1,670 26,733 16
37. Louisiana-Lafayette 2,211 26,539 12
38. Texas State 1,396 22,336 16
39. Georgia Tech 1,371 21,946 16
40. Georgia Southern 1,352 20,284 15
41. Stetson 1,182 18,919 16
42. Creighton 2,357 18,860 8
43. Oregon 1,432 18,622 13
44. South Alabama 1,336 17,370 13
45. Troy 1,255 16,319 13
46. Long Beach State 1,183 14,197 12
47. Cal Poly 1,046 13,598 13
48. Oregon State 1,297 12,977 10

[108 Stitches]

Whatagame.

Baseball is huge in the West, but I think Ralph pointed this out once that there are only 45 D3 baseball teams west of the Mississippi.  If you look from a % standpoint there are a high number of Western D3 teams ranked relative to the number of schools fielding programs so % wise it is very successful, it just gets lost in the D1 noise, and the fact that there are so many Eastern teams.

From a talent standpoint, there are many many more D1 players in California than there are Cal. roster spots so you see a large number of them in programs all over the country, including D1, D2 and D3. 

The top Western D3 programs like to recruit borderline D1 players and D1 players who play D3 ball for academic reasons. Obviously they can't fill their rosters with them, but teams like Chapman and Trinity have quite a few D1 players playing D3 ball generally for academic reasons. As infielddad pointed out there are just not the many of them.

[forheavendial4999]

What do you mean by academic reasons?

[Ralph Turner]

We fans like to think of baseball as the "thinking man's sport". After all, we don't think that it is unusual for Stanford and Rice to be in the College World Series finals.

In other parts of the country, you have a really good kid who knows that he won't make pro ball, but he loves the sport and coaches love him for his insight to the game.  He ends up at St Thomas, or WashUStL or Wheaton MA or DePauw or Johns Hopkins or Tufts or Williams or Amherst (or numerous others) and is playing baseball for the academics...

In the south, he might be playing [partial] scholarship ball at D-II or D-1 within a 200-mile radius of home where his folks can catch most of the games.

As for Birmingham-Southern, yes they will be a force in the SAA.

Also the SCAC will get 2 really outstanding programs to challenge Trinity in Centenary LA and Texas Lutheran.

[Ralph Turner]

What do you mean by academic reasons?

Academic reasons, they get plenty of playing time at D-III and get a really great education.

They were not good enough ball players to get the scholarship to Rice or Stanford, so they play at the level where they get the education that they want and can play plenty of ball.

I interviewed a player from Johns Hopkins for D3baseball.com about 4 years ago.  He was playing Texas League ball, but in my mind, he might never have his "cup of coffee", but he might end up as general manager if he wanted to.  Sure he rode bus from Midland to San Antonio to Arkansas. He knew the road trips so he could relate.  What he learned at Hopkins was what was valuable for him in the front office, besides what he lived during his time in AA.

[108 Stitches]

Heaven,

Ralph hit on one aspect of the academic reasons, but I know several D1 players who are playing D3 ball because it was virtually impossible for them to be a premed, science or engineering major and play D1 ball. (and get any playing time) Also when you look at the scholarships available with 11.7 limitations (this assumes they are fully funded) for a D1 program, in many cases there is as much or more academic money available for a high academic kid.