BB: Top Teams in West Region

[(509)Rat]

I am tired hearing about how the NCAA just doesn't have the money for an expanded region and somehow it is ithe schools fault for not spending money to travel to play "quality" opponenets to improve thier SOS etc. We need to stop making excuses for the NCAA. Bottom line is they just don't want to spend any more $$ on DIII level baseball *sports in general. The schools are getting preasure to keep their tution and costs in line. However, with the current system, it is the schools that are being told, in effect, that they are just being cheap or are not willing to properly support their program, unless they are willing to spend more and travel more duing the regular season. Sorry, I am not buying the snake oil anymore.

Texas BB

*fixed

[Ralph Turner]

Let 's analyze your statement. 

Trinity loses twice last weekend and in their conference tourney and are still the top ranked team in the West.   I look at this like NASCAR.  Greg Biffle was 6 seconds ahead of Tony Stewart in the previous lap. Now his lead is only 2 seconds. Trinity had a result versus a regionally ranked team -- a loss which is still a result.

Concordia has lost 3 of their last 6 games and is still ranked 2nd.   They went .500 over the last 2 weekends.  You know how hard it is to raise the batting average by 10 points in September.  Going .500 in games #38 thru #43 is the same thing.   #3 Whitworth in both rankings went 3-0 against Whitman (5-34).  Who did Whitworth beat to leap frog CTX?  #4 Pac Lu lost 2 of 3 from NWC co-champ Pacific in the last weekend.

I just don't think the system works well in the west. The West Region is just too spread out. It is like one poster said earlier - 3 divisions. NW, SCAL and Texas. There is nothing in common between the teams that are in the NW part of the Region and the teams from Texas. The weather significantly different,  they are 2 times zones away (Weather and time zones are not a criteria.)  and never play each other execpt at the regionals.  Common opponents is a stretch. The closest is when they each play teams from S Cal. Head to head say Linfield against UTT or CTX just does not happen. (Actually they did.  The February Arizona "confab" had Cal Lu, SRSU, Linfield, CMS, UTD, McMurry, LaVerne, Pac Lu, Whittier, George Fox and Whitman each playing 3-5 games.   The teams in italics are still in the hunt.  UT-D, Cal Lu, Whittier, Linfield and George Fox all had respectable seasons with solid runs towards the conference pennant.  UTT and CTX is much more likely to happen in a 12-team ASC. I will propose this.  If UT-Tyler had played 5 credible games in the February Arizona "confab" instead of 5 games against Castleton State and Arlington Baptist, I'll bet that they would be in the regional rankings at about #4, #5 or #6)

I think it is time we have sub-regionals 4 teams playing in each sub-regional in a double elimination format. The winners of the the 3 sub regional plus one other wild card a second team from the sub region with most teams, would play in the regional double elimination. Similar to what is done at D-I.  6 teams in a regional just doesn't get if for me. The regional rankings need to broken into sub-regions as well. This means that a total of 12 teams will be playing in the post season tournaments not 6. Since the sub-regional tournaments would be held within the sub-region their would not be alot of travel expense.

(We already have sub-regionals. They are called conferences.   )

I am tired hearing about how the NCAA just doesn't have the money for an expanded region  (my italics) and somehow it is the schools fault for not spending money to travel to play "quality" opponenets to improve thier SOS etc. (I think that the real question here is missed class time.  D-III has a focus on student-athletes and a regional orientation.  Now if a school wishes to have a different focus on its athletic competition, then D-II with its regional format and partial athletic scholarships or D-I is an option.)  We need to stop making excuses for the NCAA. Bottom line is they just don't want to spend any more $$ on DIII level baseball. (The current March Madness contract is where the money came for D-III to have 16 Pool C bids instead of 3 Pool C baseball bids like they had in the early 2000's.) The schools are getting preasure to keep their tution and costs in line. However, with the current system, it is the schools that are being told, in effect, that they are just being cheap or are not willing to properly support their program, unless they are willing to spend more and travel more duing the regular season. Sorry, I am not buying the snake oil anymore.

Texas BB

Thanks

[Ralph Turner]

 

SRSU to Phoenix AZ  10 hours and 7 mins

SRSU to UT-Tyler   10 hours and 6 mins.   LOL

[108 Stitches]

I get what you are saying TexasBB, but the system works about as good as it can given the limitations on money. I don't see this changing, given that the NCAA is funding a lot of sports other than baseball with all of this money is coming out of the final four D1 basketball tournament. Teams just need to know how the system works and go out and beat their in region competitors and realize these are the important games they play.

Generally the top teams get  to the Regional tournament, where it is probably unfair is the lack of national seeding at the Regionals. From what I have seen TU and CTX are the best of the Texas teams and have separated themselves from the others over the season. You get a team from Ca and the Nwest, two from Texas and then one other from somewhere from the group. The difficulty happens when you start to get down the seeding list and the borderline teams get left out. (or not) There is always someone regardless how many teams you have will say they deserved to be in the tournament.

It is just difficult when you are one of those borderline teams, but no matter how many you have there will always be some.

**late add Ralph did a much better job than I just did....

[Ralph Turner]

I get what you are saying TexasBB, but the system works about as good as it can given the limitations on money. I don't see this changing, given that the NCAA is funding a lot of sports other than baseball with all of this money is coming out of the final four D1 basketball tournament. Teams just need to know how the system works and go out and beat their in region competitors and realize these are the important games they play.

Generally the top teams get  to the Regional tournament, where it is probably unfair is the lack of national seeding at the Regionals. From what I have seen TU and CTX are the best of the Texas teams and have separated themselves from the others over the season. You get a team from Ca and the Nwest, two from Texas and then one other from somewhere from the group. The difficulty happens when you start to get down the seeding list and the borderline teams get left out. (or not) There is always someone regardless how many teams you have will say they deserved to be in the tournament.

It is just difficult when you are one of those borderline teams, but no matter how many you have there will always be some.

**late add Ralph did a much better job than I just did....

Not necessarily better..

but definitely synergy of thought.

Almost synoptic in understanding and insight...

Great minds on the same channel... 

[El Hombre]

Trinity looses twice last weekend and in their conference tourney and are still the top ranked team in the West. Concordia has lost 3 of their last 6 games and is still ranked 2nd.

All that matters is that according to the primary selection criteria (SOS and in-region winning percentage), Trinity and Concordia still have the RPI ratings that place them in their appropriate "regional ranking" position (even with their recent losses factored in).  As of Monday, Trinity's RPI was .570 and Concordia's was .567.  If the selection committee adheres to the criteria, their personal opinions should not come into play for ranking teams.     

[Ralph Turner]

From the Handbook

The primary criteria emphasize regional competition (all contests leading up to NCAA championships); all criteria listed will be evaluated (not listed in priority order)  [my italics...].

●● Win-loss percentage against regional opponents.
●● Strength-of-schedule (only contests versus regional competition).
-- Opponents' Average Winning Percentage (OWP).
-- Opponents' Opponents' Average Winning Percentage (OOWP).
See Appendix C on page 91 for explanation of OWP and OOWP calculations.

●● In-region head-to-head competition.
●● In-region results versus common regional opponents.
●● In-region results versus regionally ranked teams.
-- Ranked opponents are defined as those teams ranked at any time of the rankings/selection process.
●● Conference postseason contests are included.

[ILVBB]

While I think about the system and how it works, I wonder if in a year or two will the Chapman fans miss "the good old days" of being an independent? They have done such a good job of "working the system." The have been able pick their schedule, commit to travel and as result the have benefited both in terms of team quality, but more so they have insured their place in the regions by having a very strong SOS (as well as managing the other quantitative measures).

The teams that have committed to travel year in and year out benefit come tournament time. Cost effectively killed the SCAC (the new SCAC is clearly not the same conference).

Over the next two weeks the boards will be full of discussion, mostly by those regions where teams can play beyond their conference, that this team or that has better numbers because the system favors geographic areas with multiple conferences. That is how the system works, I have always thought that it stinks. What frustrates me the most is the blind greed and indifference that the NCAA applies to D3. The system works fine for them, yet it truely does little to help schools overcome today's economics and the impact it has on what truly should be but is not a national championship.

[TexasBB]

Over the next two weeks the boards will be full of discussion, mostly by those regions where teams can play beyond their conference, that this team or that has better numbers because the system favors geographic areas with multiple conferences. That is how the system works, I have always thought that it stinks. What frustrates me the most is the blind greed and indifference that the NCAA applies to D3. The system works fine for them, yet it truely does little to help schools overcome today's economics and the impact it has on what truly should be but is not a national championship.

Well stated.

Six teams in the most diverse region in the country with the greatest distances is the problem. Especially when it looks like one team is not going to be from the west. A new way of looking at this and how the teams are ranked, at least for this region is needed.

However, I doubt the NCAA changes.

How many more teams will leave D III from the west if this continues.
Texas BB

[OshDude]

Over the next two weeks the boards will be full of discussion, mostly by those regions where teams can play beyond their conference, that this team or that has better numbers because the system favors geographic areas with multiple conferences. That is how the system works, I have always thought that it stinks. What frustrates me the most is the blind greed and indifference that the NCAA applies to D3. The system works fine for them, yet it truely does little to help schools overcome today's economics and the impact it has on what truly should be but is not a national championship.

Well stated.

Six teams in the most diverse region in the country with the greatest distances is the problem. Especially when it looks like one team is not going to be from the west. A new way of looking at this and how the teams are ranked, at least for this region is needed.

However, I doubt the NCAA changes.

How many more teams will leave D III from the west if this continues.
Texas BB

If what continues? In many years the West regional is populated by six West Region teams. That's a healthy percentage of the regional pie.

This year there may not be six West teams so the sky is falling and the NCAA must change its selection rules that have been in place for a long time? The same rules that everyone knows ahead of time and have afforded very steady representation of West Region programs?

The region may have had a down season relatively. I repeat, "may!" The West regional could still have six West Region teams, but why can't a region just have a down season and leave it at that? It happens.

[infielddad]

TexasBB,
The two West Region teams that left DIII are both in Northern CA.  Menlo and Cal State Hayward.
They left because they had no teams to play in Northern CA which were DIII.
Menlo is now NAIA. I don't believe they are offering baseball scholarships. Their travel is about the same as when they were D3, but the highs and lows of the competition have broadened, in my view. Does UTT have that type of option if they are not going to invest more $$$$ for the NAIA or D2 approach?  If they invested a few more $$$, would they get a better return at the D3 level?
While cost/travel was offered as the reason for the demise of the SCAC of the past, that is the reason offered but perhaps not the, universally,  true reason.
Right now, their is one athletic department from a school leaving the SCAC which is  pushing very hard to rejoin the SCAC.
Schools leaving the SCAC which  heavily recruited Texas for players(not just baseball) and top students are realizing the potential impact of leaving the SCAC.
They are less likely to get them going forward. The coaching staffs in all sports know that.
Going forward, Trinity is committed to build a new baseball field to host Regionals.
Next year they will travel to Chapman and similar plans exist going forward beyond next year.
What Ralph and Jim in conjunction with the D3 website have done is so great for D3 sports and D3 baseball.
In 2002, TU had, perhaps, the best team it has ever had, but lost to Southwestern for the AQ in the tournament.
At that point, the Pool C was a mystery, a total mystery.
Now, it involves some guesswork, but this board allows great discussions.
As Ralph noted, some who are posting really research and offer great information.
Whether anyone likes it or not, the best 8 teams don't end up in Omaha every June, but 8 very good teams do.
It is a bit less precise in D3 and the West Region presents some challenges for sure.
Most years, the challenge is there are too many teams in the West Region.
This year, perhaps that is not the case.
Last year UTT had a season opening tournament with TU, UTD. In my view, with their facility and the quality of the players they are recruiting there is no apparent reason they cannot host an early season tournament with some very top programs.
If schools will go to AZ, why not Tyler, at least some of them.
In my view, D3 is evolving but in ways different than the past.
This board and many posters are providing timely RPI and in region information which never existed in such public ways before this board evolved.
It "ain't" perfect, but the discussions are sure fun!

[CrashDavisD3]

I wish the NCAA really continues to stay with the regionally approach and continue to make more changes to make it better

My thoughts Keep it simple
1) 30 games min. for each team must be in region
2) All regionals should pick only teams from their region for the regional.
    Example West gets 6 teams
3) Have in Region winning percentage as the primary criteria
4) Throw out SOS, OWP, OOWP

[Ralph Turner]

Thanks for the response...

I wish the NCAA really continues to stay with the regionally approach and continue to make more changes to make it better

My thoughts Keep it simple
1) 30 games min. for each team must be in region  (There is legislation going thru the Competition committee that ~70% of games must be in-region for all sports).

2) All regionals should pick only teams from their region for the regional.   Example West gets 6 teams. (The NCAA currently funds 1 playoff bid for every 6.5 participatns in almost all team sports. This money comes from the current March Madness TV Contract.  The old TV contract allowed the NCAA to pay for 1 bid for every 7.5 participants, so the new TV contract has allowed more at large bids. The New England Region has 67 teams. Does the New England Region get 10 bids for its 10-team Regional?)

3) Have in Region winning percentage as the primary criteria

4) Throw out SOS, OWP, OOWP (How do you objectively determine whether a team has played a tough representative schedule and not just lined up 30 patsies? We would not like relegating this decision to some opinion of 3 guys sitting in a room.)

In a lot of ways, the West Region is just the "red-headed step-child" of the NCAA.

[Ralph Turner]

The attraction to Arizona is that the teams can see the Spring Training facilities of the major league baseball teams.

[CrashDavisD3]

The attraction to Arizona is that the teams can see the Spring Training facilities of the major league baseball teams.

It would be great if more teams in the West region played in AZ in early season games.