2013 Division III NCAA Tournament

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

The rounds of 8 and 4 in Salem sound tricky to me.  That's 6 games.  The most obvious ways to do it would be to play all four quarterfinals on Friday and the semis on Saturday, or two quarterfinals on Friday and two on Saturday, with the two semifinal games on Sunday.  It's possible to play four games in one day -- the inaugural Koch Classic (which I managed) in the fall of 1986 at MIT did this, with two women's and two men's games -- but it made for an extremely long day of basketball.  The other way requires three days in Salem and has the Sunday problem.  The other problem either way is that it disrupts the pod structure of the early rounds of the tournament, and results in the finalists likely having to make four trips (rounds of 64 and 32, round of 16, rounds of 8 and 4, and round of 2).

Salem can already do this... they host nearly the entire ODAC men's and women's basketball tournament in the last weekend of the regular season every year. That is 8 women and 8 men's teams and games played over three days. So the feasability and the scheduling for Salem wouldn't be an issue.

As far as the schedule, they would have to go with four games on Friday and two games on Saturday (or Saturday/Sunday - though I doubt that will be the best option due to schools like Hope, Calvin, Wheaton (Ill.) and others that have religious restrictions about games on Sundays and could be in that situation). 2/2/2 isn't fair to those two teams on Saturday who have to turn around and play on Sunday when the other two got a day off - plus if costs are a factor that is an extra night of hotel rooms.

The real question that won't be answered for awhile will be how Salem will be able to still create the incredible experience for the championship weekend with eight teams. Banquet/Community Service/Atmosphere and several others are things they have enjoyed providing for the student-athletes and the student-athletes have said they enjoy having. Some of that is going to have to be sacrificed next season... how much and what will be determined once the official schedule comes out and those in Salem and the ODAC have a chance to hash things out.

Finally... the only real question left is... what happens to the NABC All-Star Game... that is something that I can't even figure out in my head... so I can't imagine what those at the NABC are thinking.

[hickory_cornhusker]

How many teams have a no play on Sunday rule? Would it be possible to get all of them on one side of the bracket (Let's call this side Bracket A)?

Hickory_Cornhusker's Idea (I think D3 soccer used something similar this year or last when I believe Loras hosted the men's and women's regional pod.)
Friday night play the 2 Elite 8 games in Bracket A at 6 and 8.

Saturday afternoon play the 2 Elite 8 games in Bracket B at 1 and 3.
Saturday night play the Final Four game in Bracket A at 7.

Sunday afternoon play the Final Four game for Bracket B at 2.



This would solve the no play on Sunday rule. There would be no 4 games in one day. There would also be no extra day to prepare advantage for the Final Four games.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Putting all those schools on the same side of the bracket just so they don't play on Sunday wouldn't be competitively fair... not to mention the fact, the brackets are somewhat regionalized to begin with... so you can't take schools from the Northeast, East, Mid-Atlantic, and Atlantic, for example, and put them on the same side with the South, West, Great Lakes, and Midwest... there would be FAR too many travel problems in the earlier rounds.

[Pat Coleman]

Not that it matters because it won't be scheduled this way, I honestly don't think it matters if two teams in one semifinal played back-to-back nights and the two teams in the other semifinal played with a night off in between. With all the time off between the semifinals and the championship game, it doesn't matter where there's a day here or there.

[northb]

How many teams have a no play on Sunday rule? Would it be possible to get all of them on one side of the bracket (Let's call this side Bracket A)?

Hickory_Cornhusker's Idea (I think D3 soccer used something similar this year or last when I believe Loras hosted the men's and women's regional pod.)
Friday night play the 2 Elite 8 games in Bracket A at 6 and 8.

Saturday afternoon play the 2 Elite 8 games in Bracket B at 1 and 3.
Saturday night play the Final Four game in Bracket A at 7.

Sunday afternoon play the Final Four game for Bracket B at 2.



This would solve the no play on Sunday rule. There would be no 4 games in one day. There would also be no extra day to prepare advantage for the Final Four games.

So your idea is to purposely pit the Christian schools against each other?

[hickory_cornhusker]

How many teams have a no play on Sunday rule? Would it be possible to get all of them on one side of the bracket (Let's call this side Bracket A)?

Hickory_Cornhusker's Idea (I think D3 soccer used something similar this year or last when I believe Loras hosted the men's and women's regional pod.)
Friday night play the 2 Elite 8 games in Bracket A at 6 and 8.

Saturday afternoon play the 2 Elite 8 games in Bracket B at 1 and 3.
Saturday night play the Final Four game in Bracket A at 7.

Sunday afternoon play the Final Four game for Bracket B at 2.



This would solve the no play on Sunday rule. There would be no 4 games in one day. There would also be no extra day to prepare advantage for the Final Four games.

So your idea is to purposely pit the Christian schools against each other?

Not necessarily. There are several Christian schools that are allowed to play on Sunday. Let's say we have five schools in the bracket that can't play on Sunday. We scatter them among the 31 slots (assuming there are 62 teams again next year) on the left side of the bracket. Then we fill in the rest of the bracket appropriately from there going by geography, seeding, etc. Odds are there will be several teams in Bracket A that are allowed to play on Sunday.

Putting all those schools on the same side of the bracket just so they don't play on Sunday wouldn't be competitively fair... not to mention the fact, the brackets are somewhat regionalized to begin with... so you can't take schools from the Northeast, East, Mid-Atlantic, and Atlantic, for example, and put them on the same side with the South, West, Great Lakes, and Midwest... there would be FAR too many travel problems in the earlier rounds.

You're think if we were to play this out in a normal year. Next year the travel is different. Once you get down to 8 teams it doesn't matter if Emory is playing St. Thomas that round and Williams is playing Chapman. They all are going to be played in Salem. All you have to worry about is holding sections of 8 together (or 7).

I went through the 2012 tourney and split the quads up. First to Saturday, second to Sunday, third to Saturday, etc.  Then I put paired up quads that were in the same group as them. I know I broke a few rules doing this. Hope is playing on Sunday. I just did it to prove you can rip the current regions apart and put them back together without much travel when you only need to worry about 8 teams traveling instead of 16.These are the groups I ended up with:

Saturday
Wooster   GL
Maryville   S
Randolph-Macon   S
Capital   GL
Bye   
Virginia Wesleyan   S
St. Mary's MD   MA
Bethany   GL

Cabrini   MA
Castleton State   NE
Hobart   E
Ohio Wesleyan   GL
Hartwick   E
Farmingdale State   A
MIT   NE
Skidmore   E

UW-River Falls   W
Edgewood   MW
Wheaton   MW
Gustavus Adolphus   W
Wash U   MW
Buena Vista   W
North Central   MW
Rose-Hulman   MW

Middlebury   NE
Morrisville State   E
Albertus Magnus   NE
St. Joe's LI   A
Bye   
Amherst   NE
NYU   E
Misericordia   MA


Sunday
Transylvania   MW
Carroll   MW
Wittenberg   GL
Birmingham-Southern   S
Hope   GL
Westminster MO   MW
UW-Stevens Point   W
Illinois Wesleyan   MW

Franklin and Marshall   MA
York PA   MA
Western Connecticut   NE
Christopher Newport   S
William Patterson   A
Becker   NE
Messiah   MA
Scranton   MA

Staten Island   A
Ithaca   E
Rhode Island College   NE
Salem State   NE
Oswego State   E
Endicott   NE
Eastern Connecticut   NE
Medaille   E

UW-Whitewater   W
Northwestern   W
C-M-S   W
St. Thomas   W
Mary Hardin Baylor   S
Trinity TX   S
Whitworth   W
McMurry   S


Is it perfect? No. There a few issues. Birmingham-Southern and C-M-S being in different quads then the rest of the outliers causes a potential issue if they make it through their quad and the Texas Quad will have to travel regardless. But otherwise there isn't a big jump in travel if you creating two distinct brackets.

As for the competitive part. I didn't look at the rankings at all when I was piecing this together. But the only real issue would end up if two schools who can't play on Sunday are ranked #1 and #2. Otherwise they could be split up real easily if you have one who can and one who can't. Or if you have two teams that can.




I am still really curious to know how many schools have a "Don't play on Sunday" rule. That number would make it easier to determine how much of a problem this could be.

[northb]

Think about it if we reversed it the other way--if there were schools that were overtly athiest, and the NCAA said that such schools HAD to play in certain brackets, based only on the fact that they were overtly athiest.  The ACLU would be all over that one!

I think the best way is the way it is done now--accomodate the schools with reasonable requests, but set your bracket on basketball only.  Well, basketball and distance and plane fare, etc.

[gordonmann]

Since I'm a social media recluse, this may be already be old news.  The Division III management council approved a format for next year's Division III men's basketball tournament.  It still needs the Presidents Council's final approval in August.  The proposed format is:

First round: Saturday, March 2nd at host institutions
Second round: Saturday, March 9th at host institutions
Third round: Saturday, March 16th at host institutions
Quarterfinals: Friday, March 22 at Salem
Semifinals: Saturday, March 23 at Salem
National championship: Sunday, April 7 (two weeks later) in Atlanta

The selection date doesn't change.  There won't be any four team pods the first weekend of the tournament.  Eight teams will go to Salem instead of four.

[ronk]

Since I'm a social media recluse, this may be already be old news.  The Division III management council approved a format for next year's Division III men's basketball tournament.  It still needs the Presidents Council's final approval in August.  The proposed format is:

First round: Saturday, March 2nd at host institutions
Second round: Saturday, March 9th at host institutions
Third round: Saturday, March 16th at host institutions
Quarterfinals: Friday, March 22 at Salem
Semifinals: Saturday, March 23 at Salem
National championship: Sunday, April 7 (two weeks later) in Atlanta

The selection date doesn't change.  There won't be any four team pods the first weekend of the tournament.  Eight teams will go to Salem instead of four.

or any weekend?

[KnightSlappy]

Since I'm a social media recluse, this may be already be old news.  The Division III management council approved a format for next year's Division III men's basketball tournament.  It still needs the Presidents Council's final approval in August.  The proposed format is:

First round: Saturday, March 2nd at host institutions
Second round: Saturday, March 9th at host institutions
Third round: Saturday, March 16th at host institutions
Quarterfinals: Friday, March 22 at Salem
Semifinals: Saturday, March 23 at Salem
National championship: Sunday, April 7 (two weeks later) in Atlanta

The selection date doesn't change.  There won't be any four team pods the first weekend of the tournament.  Eight teams will go to Salem instead of four.

I think this is the best option as long as the NCAA loosens up the travel budget a little bit. There's going to be more early-round flights if they hope to seed the tournament fairly.

[Just Bill]

With only one back-to-back night on the schedule, depth may not be as important this year as it has in the past. We'll also probably see a lot of schools hosting games that may have never hosted a game before. That will be cool.

[gordonmann]

Quote from: gordonmann on Yesterday at 11:30:26 pm

    Since I'm a social media recluse, this may be already be old news.  The Division III management council approved a format for next year's Division III men's basketball tournament.  It still needs the Presidents Council's final approval in August.  The proposed format is:

    First round: Saturday, March 2nd at host institutions
    Second round: Saturday, March 9th at host institutions
    Third round: Saturday, March 16th at host institutions
    Quarterfinals: Friday, March 22 at Salem
    Semifinals: Saturday, March 23 at Salem
    National championship: Sunday, April 7 (two weeks later) in Atlanta

    The selection date doesn't change.  There won't be any four team pods the first weekend of the tournament.  Eight teams will go to Salem instead of four.


or any weekend?

Correct, though you might think of the quarterfinals as an eight-team pod, I guess.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

This topic will certainly be part of a conversation with the new men's basketball committee chair Mike DeWitt coming up early next week on another Hoopsville On Demand podcast. You can also learn more on what I think is a well written article from the NCAA's Gary Brown.

Part of the conversation with Mike DeWitt will center around travel and early round games and what the committee hopes to do with those games and some of the concerns they have executing their plan.

If you have any particular questions you would like to possibly hear Coach DeWitt answer, please feel free to leave them here or email me at dave.mchugh@d3sports.com. I will do my best to ask them. You have until Sunday morning to submit them .

[Mr. Ypsi]

Dave, a possible question:

Has there ever been any consideration given to 'linking' conferences in adjoining regions so all games would be in-region?  There are a few conferences (esp. MIAA) for whom this would be extremely beneficial.  For example, the CCIW is fortunate to be located where in-region choices are plentiful, but many CCIW teams are located closer to many MIAA teams than ANY in-region OOC opponent (esp. for the W. Michigan MIAA teams), but are still slightly beyond the 200-mile limit.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I know they're going to one game per week to stretch out the tournament and leave less of a layoff for the championships game, but that really messes up a team's schedule moving from (often) three games a week to one.

Ideally, if they decide to keep this format in future years, maybe they can push the end of the regular season another week, so they can make the tournament a bit more "normal."