2013 Division III NCAA Tournament

[Greek Tragedy]

Wally,

You completely misunderstood my post. Some argued that attendence dropped because the Final wasn't being played the same weekend. If you don't have the opportunity to see your team win a championship or at least witness a Final, there is less appeal. It doesn't matter where the Elite 8 and semis are...there is no champioship game.

Sorry to confuse you.

[Just Bill]

I have a very hard time believing the NCAA would not work out a model that is in their favor.  I could see them paying for the next couple of years where bids have already been completed.  However, for sites that have yet to be determined I could easily see them telling those potential cities - as part of hosting the D1 Final Four - you (the city) are responsible for picking up the tab and hosting the D2 and D3 games and/or requiring them to pay at least half of the bill.  That's not going to prevent any city from bidding.  Also, just because the games were free this year doesn't mean they have to be free in the future.  Slap a $5 ticket on a single game or $10 for both etc. and I still think you'd get about the same amount of fans as you would if it was free.

You had me until that last sentence. I think $5 or $10 more to the common D-I basketball fan hanging around on Sunday would be a roadblock. I think they'll just go to a bar and drink the $10 instead.

And really, there's no reason to charge admission. You can't even come close to covering the cost of the event with $5 ticket, so why bother. It won't even make a dent.

[sac]

I think nearly everyone will agree that we need the Final Four and Championship game needs to be played on the same weekend. A lot of posters have felt the attendence suffered at Salem because it wasn't thee destination without the Final there.  Personally, I would have loved to see the quarters and semis even if it risked not seeing my team in Atlanta.

Simple solution if we do this again is to have the quarterfinal/semi in two different locations.  One in the East, one in the Midwest. 

[Greek Tragedy]

And still have a stand-alone Final?

How about the Elite 8 in one location and the Final Four and Championship the following weekend.

[sac]

And still have a stand-alone Final?

How about the Elite 8 in one location and the Final Four and Championship the following weekend.

An elite 8 in one location and final four in another still brings the problem of having two difficult and expensive travel weeks.  Something I think did affect attendance in Salem.  I was thinking split the elite 8 geographically to reduce travel for 5 or 6 of the teams.

Or better yet, add the Sweet sixteen and have 8 teams at one location, one in the East one in the Midwest.  With the winners heading to wherever the D1 Final is that season.

[Ralph Turner]

And still have a stand-alone Final?

How about the Elite 8 in one location and the Final Four and Championship the following weekend.

An elite 8 in one location and final four in another still brings the problem of having two difficult and expensive travel weeks.  Something I think did affect attendance in Salem.  I was thinking split the elite 8 geographically to reduce travel for 5 or 6 of the teams.

Or better yet, add the Sweet sixteen and have 8 teams at one location, one in the East one in the Midwest.  With the winners heading to wherever the D1 Final is that season.

Okay, East is the Northeast, East, Atlantic and Mid-Atlantic Regions.  Except you probably might not host the event in New Jersey.

The West is the South, Great Lakes, Midwest and West Regions.  This only continues to concentrate the "Bracket of Death"...no dilution from the other schools on the west side of the Hudson River.

How much was the previous arrangement broken?

[Just Bill]

Here's what I would do (I think. Subject to revision at any time.)...

Weekend 1 - First Round and Second Round, Four team pods, on campus of "top" seed (assuming adequate facility, geography, yada, yada).

Weekend 2 - Round of 16 and Round of 8, Four team pods, on campus of "top" seed (assuming adequate facility, geography, yada, yada).

Weekend 3 - National semifinals, two different neutral courts, best possible mid-point location chosen once we know the participating teams. We'd probably have to have a list of schools to declare ahead of time that they are willing and able to host a neutral site game on this weekend if called upon. As an example, this year, perhaps it would have been Wash U. hosting the St. Thomas/UMHB game and maybe Baldwin-Wallace hosting the NCC/Amherst game. Maybe the NCAA can allow host schools to keep a bigger share of the pie as an incentive for being willing to host a neutral site game.

Weekend 4 - National title game

So for all but 4 teams, the tournament schedule would be exactly what they've been used to. You avoid letting someone play a national semifinal game on their home floor. If you get lucky, those neutral site semifinal games may be within driving distance so that teams and fans don't have to take two flights in two weeks. If you're unlucky, you get Whitworth vs. Virginia Wesleyan and it doesn't matter where you play because everyone is flying anyway.

Bad news, no Salem.

[sac]

And still have a stand-alone Final?

How about the Elite 8 in one location and the Final Four and Championship the following weekend.

An elite 8 in one location and final four in another still brings the problem of having two difficult and expensive travel weeks.  Something I think did affect attendance in Salem.  I was thinking split the elite 8 geographically to reduce travel for 5 or 6 of the teams.

Or better yet, add the Sweet sixteen and have 8 teams at one location, one in the East one in the Midwest.  With the winners heading to wherever the D1 Final is that season.

Okay, East is the Northeast, East, Atlantic and Mid-Atlantic Regions.  Except you probably might not host the event in New Jersey.

The West is the South, Great Lakes, Midwest and West Regions.  This only continues to concentrate the "Bracket of Death"...no dilution from the other schools on the west side of the Hudson River.

How much was the previous arrangement broken?

You could still cross teams into the different brackets.  It might even save you a couple flights you might have had to get teams to Salem.

The idea I've put up there is just to get more fans closer to an Elite 8/Semi-final, so its not played in an empty Salem Civic Center every year.   More fans, not all of them.

[wally_wabash]

Wally,

You completely misunderstood my post. Some argued that attendence dropped because the Final wasn't being played the same weekend. If you don't have the opportunity to see your team win a championship or at least witness a Final, there is less appeal. It doesn't matter where the Elite 8 and semis are...there is no champioship game.

Sorry to confuse you.

No, not confused.  I just don't think that smaller crowds in Salem should have been a big surprise.  Like you've said, without the championship game, there just won't be quite the same amount of interest, even if you've got twice as many teams at that site as you would at a traditional D-III final four.  I'm also not sure that smaller crowds in Salem are a reason to not play the championship during the D-I championship weekend, at least for as long as that D-II/D-III championship doubleheader gets the kind of treatment (for both fans and teams) that it got in Atlanta. 

[Ralph Turner]

We know that basketball season is finally over.

The baseball message boards just got moved to the top of the order, tonight, April 11, 2013!   

[Gregory Sager]

Yeah, I just noticed that, too.

[Mr. Ypsi]

We know that basketball season is finally over.

The baseball message boards just got moved to the top of the order, tonight, April 11, 2013!   

Football posters sometimes bemoan "the saddest day of the year" when football boards get demoted.  Unless I'm totally misremembering, that usually takes a couple of weeks after Salem.  This was FOUR days after the final!

In fairness, the top four general categories are all football.  Of the top ten conference boards (by views), only CCIW and MIAA (men's) basketball break the monopoly of football.

The viewable stats on this site don't say, so I'm curious: what is the most viewed baseball board and the most viewed women's basketball board; and are either in the top, say, 30 overall sites?

[Pat Coleman]

We know that basketball season is finally over.

The baseball message boards just got moved to the top of the order, tonight, April 11, 2013!   

Football posters sometimes bemoan "the saddest day of the year" when football boards get demoted.  Unless I'm totally misremembering, that usually takes a couple of weeks after Salem.  This was FOUR days after the final!

Sigh. Instead of making crap up, why not check? 25 seconds on Google got me this:

http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=7639.5

Three days after the Stagg Bowl.

Listen, as late as this tournament went, Ypsi, there is no way I could leave Posting Up above baseball any longer. This is already three weeks later in the season, right? Give me a break.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Sorry, Pat.

It IS much longer into the spring season than usual.

That post was meant as a shot at the football-centric posters, not at you.  (I'm sure if some bizarre circumstance delayed the football final to New Years Day, you would quickly shift to basketball at the top of the boards.)

[Greek Tragedy]

I think nearly everyone will agree that we need the Final Four and Championship game needs to be played on the same weekend. A lot of posters have felt the attendence suffered at Salem because it wasn't thee destination without the Final there.  Personally, I would have loved to see the quarters and semis even if it risked not seeing my team in Atlanta.

Welp.  I've not been to Salem for a championship event (shame on me, I know), and while I'm sure that Salem is lovely, it's just not going to be able to offer the same experience as Atlanta or Indy or Houston or any of the other major cities that can host Final Fours (there aren't that many).  And especially if the NCAA is going to back the D-II and D-III title games in the way that they did this year.  You kind of feel bad for Salem in a way as they have done a fantastic job of sort of carving out a space as a D-III TitleTown, but they just can't compete with a large city and the backdrop of the D-I championship.

My thought in this post is that you were stictly talking about Salem, itself, not the fact that there was no championship game played there this year. It seemed to ke you were comparing Salem to Atlanta, Indy and Houston. My point is that without a Final being played, the attendence suffered.

In hockey, D1 basketball, D3 in previous years, and probably other sports The Final Four is a destination, no matter where it is played. I think it can and ultimately should be that way.


[/quote]