2013 Division III NCAA Tournament

[Ralph Turner]

We know that basketball season is finally over.

The baseball message boards just got moved to the top of the order, tonight, April 11, 2013!   

Football posters sometimes bemoan "the saddest day of the year" when football boards get demoted.  Unless I'm totally misremembering, that usually takes a couple of weeks after Salem.  This was FOUR days after the final!

Sigh. Instead of making crap up, why not check? 25 seconds on Google got me this:

http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=7639.5

Three days after the Stagg Bowl.

Listen, as late as this tournament went, Ypsi, there is no way I could leave Posting Up above baseball any longer. This is already three weeks later in the season, right? Give me a break.

Sorry, guys.  However if UMHB had won the tourney, I might have wanted to keep the Hoops message board on top for another day or two!   

Pigs almost flew!

[wally_wabash]

My thought in this post is that you were stictly talking about Salem, itself, not the fact that there was no championship game played there this year. It seemed to ke you were comparing Salem to Atlanta, Indy and Houston. My point is that without a Final being played, the attendence suffered.

In hockey, D1 basketball, D3 in previous years, and probably other sports The Final Four is a destination, no matter where it is played. I think it can and ultimately should be that way.

You're right that the final four in sports where we have become accustomed to having a final four is a destination.  I think what we saw last weekend is that maybe just maybe having the D-III title game being staged in the same city (emphasis on city) and against the same backdrop of the D-I championship weekend might be better.  So much better that we may in fact want to let go of the traditional D-III final four. 

[Titan Q]

This is from an e-mail an IWU parent, who took his son to Atlanta for Final Four weekend, sent to me yesterday.  Just another perspective on this...

Bob,

No question to me that having the DII and DIII Championships on the Sunday of the Final Four weekend is absolutely the way to go. It makes getting to the championship game such a huge deal when those teams are side-by-side with the DI Final Four teams and coaches. Salem does a nice job – but the atmosphere and the environment is in no way close to what it was this past weekend. It just draws so much more attention to the DII and DIII games with the fans there and the TV coverage. Having those games on Sunday – "The Wait" day - is the perfect filler for a city full of basketball junkies. I'd say there were close to 10,000 fans at Phillips Arena for those games with far more casual fans than Salem would ever draw. So I say start the DIII season later, run it longer, give them a mini Christmas break – whatever it takes to fix the post season and make this a permanent arrangement. We were sitting with Ron Rose at the Amherst – MHBU game and he completely agrees that is the way to go.

[Greek Tragedy]

So why not just play the semis on Friday and Final on Sunday?

Fri. 12:00 pm D3 semi
Fri. 2:30 pm D3 semi

Fri. 6:00 pm D2 semi
Fri. 8:30 pm D2 semi

Sat. D1 semis

Sun. D3 and D2 Finals

Mon. D1Final

[Pat Coleman]

I agree with all of that, although I don't want to start the season after Thanksgiving weekend and I don't want to call a formal week off during Christmas because we definitely want kids to play games during times when they can't miss class.

I would be in favor of the season starting the day after Thanksgiving as a jumping-off point to this conversation, then let us play a 20-week season instead of 19 because we have at least two weeks off of classes in the winter anyway. That 20th week becomes the fourth week of the tournament. But we can't then let CBS push the NCAA Tournament back a week to fit its needs like it did this year. That would screw us all up.

[Pat Coleman]

So why not just play the semis on Friday and Final on Sunday?

Fri. 12:00 pm D3 semi
Fri. 2:30 pm D3 semi

Fri. 6:00 pm D2 semi
Fri. 8:30 pm D2 semi

Sat. D1 semis

Sun. D3 and D2 Finals

Mon. D1Final

Might be more expense than the NCAA is willing to put up with, involves an extra day in the arena. This year there was a Hawks game on that day, I believe. They had events for the players late Thursday night, and I think during the day Friday as well.

And also, this would leave no meaningful role for Salem, and I don't think that's a good idea either.

[Just Bill]

So why not just play the semis on Friday and Final on Sunday?

Fri. 12:00 pm D3 semi
Fri. 2:30 pm D3 semi

Fri. 6:00 pm D2 semi
Fri. 8:30 pm D2 semi

Sat. D1 semis

Sun. D3 and D2 Finals

Mon. D1Final

While it would be ideal, I don't think you're going to get that level of commitment from the NCAA. I just don't think they're going to bring 8 lower division teams into the site and rent out an arena for two full days.

[Greek Tragedy]

I previously suggested having the Elite 8 at Salem.

It has also been discussed by us the idea of moving the Final Four out of Salem, so why not near theD1 Final Four?

I'm just trying to have my cake and eat it too...

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Just getting back to all of this and thought I should put in my two-cents.

I have been a major skeptic... but I am all for the DIII title game being at the D1 Final Four as long as we are dragging out the season(s) and the experience the student-athletes got this time around is not diminished (police escorts, taking part the annual Salute Dinner with the D1 teams, press conference available via satellite, autograph sessions, introduced to the Final Four and Championship crowd at the Georgia Dome, etc.). The NCAA made sure this wasn't an afterthought for the most part (I have heard from some that the promotions outside of the arena and Georgia Dome could have used a bit more push and the local media didn't seem to care that much - I didn't see one camera at either of the D3 or D2 games Sunday - heck, I am not sure I saw the local papers either).

There are some things that have to be tackled like the schedule. Again, I think the four-week playoff schedule can be done mainly because of the women don't jump on board with their own version, we can still crown a D3 winner in the third weekend. However, I do not believe as has been suggested prior that a one-round game be played in the first weekend. We saw from this schedule that the two weeks off for the bye teams isn't fair or the right thing to do (and we aren't going to see a 64-team tournament for a long time). I suggest we go with a two-round weekend (pods) the first weekend, the Sweet 16 solo the second, then the Elite 8 and Final 4 the following (assuming in Salem).

I don't think multiple sites for the Elite 8 weekend is going to happen. The NCAA isn't going to pay for the extra facility needs and such and questionable travel; the NCAA and others loved having eight teams in one location because it made the event even better, so why split it up; if no other facility has been good enough to supplant Salem, why would they be good enough to host a split Elite 8? (By the way, Salem has another year on its bid and I have not heard anything to say anyone else has considered bidding on it.); you also need the flexibility of Salem hosting the championship if something falls through at the D1 site; also remember these sites would have to be determined a year or more ahead of time, so that will affect other decisions as well.

As for the Final Four being held at the D1 Final Four... not going to happen. There are the costs of housing four more teams from D2 and D3 and the events surrounding the entire weekend doesn't allow adding another round of games. This model is based on the men's lacrosse model and they don't play the final four for all divisions on Memorial Day Weekend either - nor will they.

There are costs to keep in mind for the future. The NCAA basically rented out the Phillips Arena for this, so each city has to have an arena somewhat close by that will work and the NCAA has to be willing to pay those extra costs every year. There were extra flights, hotel rooms, transportation, and practice and shoot-around facilities that needed to be found - granted some would have done it for free - but there are more costs and logistics to keep in mind.

Could the games be held at the same place at the D1 games? No... CBS has too much production work they are doing on Sunday and I really don't think it is fair for the teams to play in an arena not even close to what they are used to (the sight lines are ridiculous in a dome) nor does 6,000 people in the Georgia Dome feel the same as 6,000 people in Phillips Arena. This pretty much means we need another arena for these games.

I also think the games probably have to stay free. I don't think the attendance numbers dictate the NCAA can off-set costs or make money on this endeavor. Charging $5 this year would have brought in a little over $31,000 for the D3 game or over $70,000 for the entire day. I really can't imagine that would have offset much let alone the rental. That being said... any amount of money is a difference maker - I just don't think you get the same attendance if the game isn't free.

Quickly about Salem's attendance that maybe is forgotten... when it is the Final Four... schools tend to bus in students to see the games. They really didn't do that this year, instead students from at least UMHB got bussed in for Atlanta. That affects attendance to be sure and something certainly to be considered outside of the fact that games starting at Noon and teams from around the country are going to affect attendance.

As for the overall schedule, we have to get the season shifted and as noted that isn't just for men's basketball. Starting maybe the Friday or Saturday of Thanksgiving weekend might work, but remember that this anomaly with CBS, the Masters, and the NCAA probably is only for a few years, though who knows since this was the first time they shifted everything (and good thing because the opening round of the Masters last Thursday would have been LOUSY). I would be willing to see a 20 week season, but nothing longer and we have to keep the post-season more concise - six weeks every year is not worth the sacrifice just for something "cool."

One major thing about all of this... decisions have to be made in the VERY near future for the '14-'15 season (this isn't going to happen for next year). If we are going to do this and thus the schedules get shifted, schools and such need to know now so that tip-off tournaments and other events (besides even tackling conference schedules) get adjusted as well. As one who helps organize an early season tournament, we are already talking about the "what if" should the season get shifted for 2014 and how that will affect when we hold the tournament. This can NOT be even close to a last minute or late decision to shift things or the beginning of the seasons are going to be a mess.

[AO]

I don't think multiple sites for the Elite 8 weekend is going to happen. The NCAA isn't going to pay for the extra facility needs and such and questionable travel; the NCAA and others loved having eight teams in one location because it made the event even better, so why split it up; if no other facility has been good enough to supplant Salem, why would they be good enough to host a split Elite 8? (By the way, Salem has another year on its bid and I have not heard anything to say anyone else has considered bidding on it.); you also need the flexibility of Salem hosting the championship if something falls through at the D1 site; also remember these sites would have to be determined a year or more ahead of time, so that will affect other decisions as well.

Quickly about Salem's attendance that maybe is forgotten... when it is the Final Four... schools tend to bus in students to see the games. They really didn't do that this year, instead students from at least UMHB got bussed in for Atlanta. That affects attendance to be sure and something certainly to be considered outside of the fact that games starting at Noon and teams from around the country are going to affect attendance.

Wouldn't 2 sites for elite8/final four possibly save several flights?  If 3 of the 4 are NESCAC teams again...

This way you're not playing at 11am and the fan buses are more likely to make the trip.

I don't think I'd support it as I'd like to see 2 teams from the same conference in the title game if they deserved it.

[gordonmann]

I was in Pittsburgh yesterday and this morning. It's hosting the Frozen Four (D1 hockey title game) this year.  The games are at the Pittsburgh Penguins new arena and admission is free. That surprised me a little, though it's understandable when you look at the teams.  I doubt there's any casual fan interest in Yale, Quinnipiac, UMass-Lowell and St. Cloud State hockey.  I guess it shows that the NCAA is more interested in having some level of attendance than having a minor level of cost recovery, even in cases where there isn't a big money making event along side the title game.

[Just Bill]

I was in Pittsburgh yesterday and this morning. It's hosting the Frozen Four (D1 hockey title game) this year.  The games are at the Pittsburgh Penguins new arena and admission is free. That surprised me a little, though it's understandable when you look at the teams.  I doubt there's any casual fan interest in Yale, Quinnipiac, UMass-Lowell and St. Cloud State hockey.  I guess it shows that the NCAA is more interested in having some level of attendance than having a minor level of cost recovery, even in cases where there isn't a big money making event along side the title game.

Free? Are you sure?

NCAA.com shows tickets for sale: http://www.ncaa.com/championships/icehockey-men/d1#!tickets_hospitality

Ticketmaster is selling tickets and StubHub has tickets for re-sale at $75.

They do a pre-sale campaign beginning a year in advance to sell tickets. Tickets for the 2014 Frozen Four are already on sale.

I'm not buying that they sold advanced tickets for a year, and then because they got four non-marquee teams, just decided to open up the gates for free.

Update:

http://wesa.fm/post/frozen-fours-three-games-are-just-start-fun

"Tickets to all three games are sold out, and online ticket resellers are asking anywhere from $20 to $200 for a seat at the semifinal games and more for the championship tilt Saturday. But for those who can’t get a ticket there is plenty of hockey action that can be taken in for free."

[sac]

I was in Pittsburgh yesterday and this morning. It's hosting the Frozen Four (D1 hockey title game) this year.  The games are at the Pittsburgh Penguins new arena and admission is free. That surprised me a little, though it's understandable when you look at the teams.  I doubt there's any casual fan interest in Yale, Quinnipiac, UMass-Lowell and St. Cloud State hockey.  I guess it shows that the NCAA is more interested in having some level of attendance than having a minor level of cost recovery, even in cases where there isn't a big money making event along side the title game.

Here's a crazy fact for you, this is the first Frozen Four in over 50 years without at least one of the major college hockey powers......Michigan, Minnesota, Wisconsin, North Dakota, Denver, Boston College, Boston Univ.

[kiko]

There are some things that have to be tackled like the schedule. Again, I think the four-week playoff schedule can be done mainly because of the women don't jump on board with their own version, we can still crown a D3 winner in the third weekend. However, I do not believe as has been suggested prior that a one-round game be played in the first weekend. We saw from this schedule that the two weeks off for the bye teams isn't fair or the right thing to do (and we aren't going to see a 64-team tournament for a long time). I suggest we go with a two-round weekend (pods) the first weekend, the Sweet 16 solo the second, then the Elite 8 and Final 4 the following (assuming in Salem).

Remember that the two-week layoff for teams with byes was only one implication of the single-round-per-week schedule that we saw in the first three weeks of this year's tournament.  The other was that the tournament became much more regionalized than in a three-week format because the tournament committee was reduced to 500-mile pairings rather than creating pods that could encompass teams from a 1,000 mile radius.  As wonderful as the Atlanta experience was for the two lucky ducky finalists, from my perspective, the hyper-regional construct of the bracket -- which the committee, as you know, had no real way around based on who qualified this year -- was a giant step backward.

With this in mind, if we end up with a four week format, as many here are suggesting, and we know that the final weekend will involve only the two championship game qualifiers, I would vastly prefer a 1-2-2-1 construct where the single round is played the first weekend.  This would give the committee much more flexibility to separate teams than they had this year.  There weren't really any issues with powerhouses meeting in the first weekend this year, because with 31 games to pair up, you've got a lot of options.  But where the issues did arise were in rounds two (mostly) and three.  Scheduling a pod in the second weekend rather than an individual round would alleviate some of what we saw this year.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Totally agree with kiko.

I do not understand the repeated emphasis on how unfair the two weeks off for the bye teams was.  Good grief, the two bye teams met for the title in Atlanta!!   (Must have meant it was unfair to everyone else!)

IF we link up with the d1 FF, 1-2-2-1 seems the best to me.  (Actually, I think a Fri-Sun FF in the d1 location is even better, but agree that it would never happen.)