Pool C -- 2012

[Bob.Gregg]

Hazben, to your point about the polls....

The final Top 25 is a perfect example in the League that I cover (PAC).

W&J (8-2)  is 34th in the poll, garnering 9 points.
Waynesburg (9-1) is 29th, with 44 points.

One loss in week 2 (to then #9 St. John Fisher by a single score on a long play)
One loss in week 6 (to Thomas More, two days after the death of their captain and leading rusher).
The final poll ballots gave Waynesburg 35 more points than W&J, the team that just soundly beat them, building a two-touchdown lead in the second quarter and playing with that the rest of the game.

So, those who would lobby for media/fan/coach voted polls would say what with this statement?  That despite being outplayed in the defacto conference championship game, that despite being clearly beaten, that Waynesburg is a better team and should receive stronger Tournament consideration than W&J?  Really?

[K-Mack]

Since the East RAC isn't here to defend itself,

Oh goodness.

[K-Mack]

The polls add in an agenda that the committees do not. To me, the polls are radioactive.

The players are smart - they can follow what Frank was saying!

Give me a break.  The d3football.com top 25 has proven itself very accurate over the years.  There's no conspiracy to leave out Bridgewater St., they're just not as good as the top25 teams they passed over to grab the last playoff spot.

No offense, but if you look at my ballot for the Top 25 (strictly at the East teams) and the East RAC's projected final rankings, there isn't much difference except that Rowan is as deep as I ranked.  Framingham would have likely been next on my ballot as far as East teams go, followed by either Bridgewater St. or Lyco.  I won't play Monday Morning QB here with how I would've ranked, but we're not looking too far off in the regional aspect.  If your point is C-M vs. Bridgewater St., then I'll answer that point later; it's a different conundrum.

Yes that's my point.  I'm saying the problem we have is judging teams fairly between regions because some conferences can't find opponents to play them (WIAC) and some conferences (NEFC) have walled themselves from the rest of D3 inflating their SOS.  Either Pool C is about getting the best remaining teams, or it is just an extension of the equal access pool A.  We get better regular season football when the incentive is to schedule the difficult games.  We wouldn't have as many of the scheduling headaches the WIAC endures.  Play the big d3 school down the road, your players will improve and it won't hurt your at large chances.

I agree with the guy with the -885 karma.

But I also think there's part of this argument that hasn't been addressed much ... who can Bridgewater State et. al. get to play them that wants to play them, and will work within budget constraints (as of a few years ago, all of the NEFC teams weren't even operating with full-time head coaches) that compare to what they get

Further, what incentive is it for them, now that they had Endicott left out at 9-1 last year but BSC in at 9-1 this year?

In a way, with the access ratio 7.5:1, the 16-team NEFC had been doing everybody a favor for years by only taking up one AQ. They got hip to the game and are splitting into two so they can claim their second, meaning this will be a moot point in the future.

But AO is right that we have a better regular season when teams schedule tough without fear of losing it all.

The better story/other angle is Adrian, which went down to Huntingdon, WON, and now plays a first-round home game as a 9-1 from a weak conference.

[Frank Rossi]

In a way, with the access ratio 7.5:1, the 16-team NEFC had been doing everybody a favor for years by only taking up one AQ. They got hip to the game and are splitting into two so they can claim their second, meaning this will be a moot point in the future.

(6.5:1)

[AO]

Hazben, to your point about the polls....

The final Top 25 is a perfect example in the League that I cover (PAC).

W&J (8-2)  is 34th in the poll, garnering 9 points.
Waynesburg (9-1) is 29th, with 44 points.

One loss in week 2 (to then #9 St. John Fisher by a single score on a long play)
One loss in week 6 (to Thomas More, two days after the death of their captain and leading rusher).
The final poll ballots gave Waynesburg 35 more points than W&J, the team that just soundly beat them, building a two-touchdown lead in the second quarter and playing with that the rest of the game.

So, those who would lobby for media/fan/coach voted polls would say what with this statement?  That despite being outplayed in the defacto conference championship game, that despite being clearly beaten, that Waynesburg is a better team and should receive stronger Tournament consideration than W&J?  Really?

You're not getting as much information about the relative rank of a team if they're not actually in the top 25.  If you were asking all the polls to rank the top 50, you'd get more voters who would rank W&J ahead of Waynesburg.

[Ralph Turner]

In a way, with the access ratio 7.5:1, the 16-team NEFC had been doing everybody a favor for years by only taking up one AQ. They got hip to the game and are splitting into two so they can claim their second, meaning this will be a moot point in the future.

(6.5:1)

6.5:1 but capped at 32 teams.

239 divided by 32 = 7.468

We are getting close.  After the loss of McMurry and Mississippi College, but the addition of a few more schools, we will be above 7.5000: 1

[K-Mack]

In a way, with the access ratio 7.5:1, the 16-team NEFC had been doing everybody a favor for years by only taking up one AQ. They got hip to the game and are splitting into two so they can claim their second, meaning this will be a moot point in the future.

(6.5:1)

Sorry for the old info.

Point enhanced.

(Thanks Ralph for making sense of it, too)

[Pat Coleman]

Agreed. Can't tell you how many teams this year alone people have complained about the number of votes they've gotten compared to someone else in the ORV section. As AO mentions, when there are only 25 teams on the ballot, you can't expect perfection beyond that. Once you get teams that aren't on the majority of ballots, it's way up in the air.

AFCA poll -- Waynesburg is still in the Top 25, for goodness sakes. Oberlin has 14 votes at 4-6. Central has 11 points at 5-5. It's silly season over there this week.

[AO]

The polls add in an agenda that the committees do not. To me, the polls are radioactive.
The players are smart - they can follow what Frank was saying!

Give me a break.  The d3football.com top 25 has proven itself very accurate over the years.  There's no conspiracy to leave out Bridgewater St., they're just not as good as the top25 teams they passed over to grab the last playoff spot.

No offense, but if you look at my ballot for the Top 25 (strictly at the East teams) and the East RAC's projected final rankings, there isn't much difference except that Rowan is as deep as I ranked.  Framingham would have likely been next on my ballot as far as East teams go, followed by either Bridgewater St. or Lyco.  I won't play Monday Morning QB here with how I would've ranked, but we're not looking too far off in the regional aspect.  If your point is C-M vs. Bridgewater St., then I'll answer that point later; it's a different conundrum.

Yes that's my point.  I'm saying the problem we have is judging teams fairly between regions because some conferences can't find opponents to play them (WIAC) and some conferences (NEFC) have walled themselves from the rest of D3 inflating their SOS.  Either Pool C is about getting the best remaining teams, or it is just an extension of the equal access pool A.  We get better regular season football when the incentive is to schedule the difficult games.  We wouldn't have as many of the scheduling headaches the WIAC endures.  Play the big d3 school down the road, your players will improve and it won't hurt your at large chances.

I agree with the guy with the -885 karma.
But I also think there's part of this argument that hasn't been addressed much ... who can Bridgewater State et. al. get to play them that wants to play them, and will work within budget constraints (as of a few years ago, all of the NEFC teams weren't even operating with full-time head coaches) that compare to what they get
Further, what incentive is it for them, now that they had Endicott left out at 9-1 last year but BSC in at 9-1 this year?
But AO is right that we have a better regular season when teams schedule tough without fear of losing it all.

This is exactly why we need more subjective evaluation.  Bridgewater State doesn't have to play Hobart, how did they look against their own conference?  Teams like Adrian that can get down to Huntingdon give themselves an opportunity to change minds about them, it isn't as if we were ignoring them while they crushed their own conference.  A loss to Carthage, one point win over Albion, they became a better team over the course of the season, it wasn't just the playoff history of the conference keeping opinions of them down.

[Pat Coleman]

In a way, with the access ratio 7.5:1, the 16-team NEFC had been doing everybody a favor for years by only taking up one AQ. They got hip to the game and are splitting into two so they can claim their second, meaning this will be a moot point in the future.

(6.5:1)

6.5:1 but capped at 32 teams.

239 divided by 32 = 7.468

We are getting close.  After the loss of McMurry and Mississippi College, but the addition of a few more schools, we will be above 7.5000: 1

Bingo. Although subtract 10 NESCAC teams.

[Pat Coleman]

Walled off works for me, smed. Have you seen the number of games the NEFC plays outside itself? They technically have two non-conference games but almost everyone plays one of them against another NEFC team. Sixteen teams averaged one true non-conference game this year, going 7-9. Of those 16 games, 10 were against the ECFC.

[smedindy]

So the solution is to wall off "C" so no one but the 'proven' ones or those with enough political clout to get ranked has a chance?

No thanks, no sir, no way, no how.

We're talking about teams that had their chance. Most of them this year lost TWICE. That won't happen next year.

[smedindy]

Walled off works for me, smed. Have you seen the number of games the NEFC plays outside itself? They technically have two non-conference games but almost everyone plays one of them against another NEFC team. Sixteen teams averaged one true non-conference game this year, going 7-9. Of those 16 games, 10 were against the ECFC.

I contend most all of that is due to budgeting issues. Perhaps AO will give them money to travel.

[K-Mack]

Bob.Gregg's point is a good one though.

Whoever was voting for Waynesburg over W&J either didn't bother to look at the Week 11 result, was using their outdated impressions of Waynesburg, or because they were 9-0 and W&J already had two losses didn't want to drop them too far ... or, perhaps legitimately felt the Jackets were better than the Presidents, but I'm willing to bet not all of them felt that way ...

And if the poll, even if it's accurate most of the time, spits out results like that, you're better off going with the NCAA's list of set criteria, where at least everyone can follow the numbers and get a concrete explanation why their team wasn't in.

That said, I'd be all for adding D3football.com TO THE COMMITTEE.

We do it every year, but we're splitting hairs. Two losses and no AQ means your playoff hopes are on life support. If you get in that way, it's gravy. It's important though, IMO, to reward teams who go out and schedule the big nonconference game, and in the cases of PLU and LC, justice was done.

[Pat Coleman]

Walled off works for me, smed. Have you seen the number of games the NEFC plays outside itself? They technically have two non-conference games but almost everyone plays one of them against another NEFC team. Sixteen teams averaged one true non-conference game this year, going 7-9. Of those 16 games, 10 were against the ECFC.

I contend most all of that is due to budgeting issues. Perhaps AO will give them money to travel.

I contend that a fair amount of that is due to desire. Thankfully Salve Regina is not so content to just play in the New England sandbox.