Division I vs. NFL ---- Division III vs. High School

[woosterbooster]

Ok, to semi-hijack and reinvigorate this thread, let me pose these questions.  I'm sure that a typically good Mount Union team could beat some DII schools, but how far up that ladder could they go?  Average DII teams?  At what point, if any, would they not be competitive?  And how would they do against the bottom dwellers of DI?  Patriot league teams, the worst of the Ivy?

[WashedUp]

Ok, to semi-hijack and reinvigorate this thread, let me pose these questions.  I've sure that a typically good Mount Union team could beat some DII schools, but how far up that ladder could they go?  Average DII teams?  At what point, if any, would they not be competitive?  And how would they do against the bottom dwellers of DI?  Patriot league teams, the worst of the Ivy?

There are a couple examples of top D3 teams beating lower level FCS teams over the last couple years.  In 2011 McMurry beat UT-SA (who moved up to FBS for 2012) and Wesley beat Charleston Southern.

[smedindy]

According to Massey, Mt. Union is ranked #210 of all College Football. Akron was 206. UMass 214, Southern Miss 215 and New Mexico State 216.

[section13raiderfan]

Massey never saw Akron U play obviously, nor Mount Union probably. Im taking Mount over Akron U every time. And I went to Akron.

[section13raiderfan]

As for highschool teams being able to beat a D3 team. It happened once back during the war when kids were dropping out of school to join the service. Teams were hard pressed to fill a schedule as teams lost players to the war effort. MUC played Massillon in a game and actually lost. Tempers flared and the game was called with Massillon holding the lead. Granted this was a long time ago and football was much different than today, but it happened. I wouldnt try it today!

[frank uible]

Spurrier has elevated coach speak to an art form.

[Mr. Ypsi]

As for highschool teams being able to beat a D3 team. It happened once back during the war when kids were dropping out of school to join the service. Teams were hard pressed to fill a schedule as teams lost players to the war effort. MUC played Massillon in a game and actually lost. Tempers flared and the game was called with Massillon holding the lead. Granted this was a long time ago and football was much different than today, but it happened. I wouldnt try it today!

Don't forget that basically MUC probably only had players left who couldn't pass the physical!   (And, of course, that they were not MOUNT UNION back then!)

I'd say the occasional high school with 7-8 d1 recruits (and others for d2 and recruited by d3/NAIA) might beat the absolute dregs of d3, but in general it is quite literally boys against men.

As to UMU vs. 'higher' levels, my gut hunch is they could beat all but the top 20 or so d2s (not saying they definitely would, but could), probably at least the bottom half of d1AA, and a few d1As (EMU, my employer for 30+ years, would IMO be only a slight favorite, and they were not even last in the MAC)

[frank uible]

The documented legend goes to the effect that in the spring of 1940 the Paul Brown coached Massillon (Ohio) High School team defeated the Kent University (now Kent State University) team, which was then being hailed by some as  the "best Kent team ever", 47-0.

[bman]

Ok, to semi-hijack and reinvigorate this thread, let me pose these questions.  I'm sure that a typically good Mount Union team could beat some DII schools, but how far up that ladder could they go?  Average DII teams?  At what point, if any, would they not be competitive?  And how would they do against the bottom dwellers of DI?  Patriot league teams, the worst of the Ivy?

Widener scrimmages Penn almost every year.  Rowan was playing Div II and non scholarship Div I schools back when they were the "Beast of the East" I think primarily because they couldn't get a full schedule...I'll have to look into who they played...and post...I recall they won a couple of those games...

[ExTartanPlayer]

As to UMU vs. 'higher' levels, my gut hunch is they could beat all but the top 20 or so d2s (not saying they definitely would, but could), probably at least the bottom half of d1AA, and a few d1As (EMU, my employer for 30+ years, would IMO be only a slight favorite, and they were not even last in the MAC)

I'd more or less agree, although I may be just a touch less optimistic (although I know you said "could" beat, which makes me think we're on about the same page). 

I've seen a lot of PSAC games (most of Pennsylvania's Division II schools, usually two or three Top 25 teams from the conference at a given time, but no recent national champions) and I think Mount Union would finish in the top half of the conference if we just plopped them in for a season with all other things held constant, but I suspect they'd struggle to actually win it.

[hazzben]

As to UMU vs. 'higher' levels, my gut hunch is they could beat all but the top 20 or so d2s (not saying they definitely would, but could), probably at least the bottom half of d1AA, and a few d1As (EMU, my employer for 30+ years, would IMO be only a slight favorite, and they were not even last in the MAC)

I wouldn't be quite this optimistic. In 2007 Whitewater lost 26-16 to St. Cloud State. UWW went on to finally beat Mount in the Stagg that year. That Mount team was being heralded as one of the best ever. That St. Cloud State team finished 4-7 and 1-7 in the now defunct North Central Conference. Only one result, I realize, but it does say something, even anecdotally.

I think the 'elite' teams (Stagg Bowl or competitive Semi-finalists, aka UMHB this year) Would be favored against the bottom half of DII. They could beat a top half team, but probably not consistently or over 50% of the time.

They could beat most of the non-scholarship FCS. But they are major outliers. I have a hard time believing Mount or UWW (of the last 7 years) would be favored or consistently beat the bottom half of the FCS. They'd beat the worst and be competitive against the bottom third. The line play/size and overall team speed would be too much. No question each would have a handful of guys (Garcon, Shorts, Kmic, Beaver, Driscoll, etc.) that could match up, but across the board, your typical FCS team will be bigger, faster and deeper.

To spread the comparison. This year, I think any of the Top 10 teams in D3 could/would win the NAIA title. In years past, I've been on record as saying I'd have loved to see some of the great University of Sioux Falls (now a Top 25 D2) and Carroll teams face off against Mount and UWW. I like to think we'd win. But those two programs have had some great players/teams the last 15 years as well.

[K-Mack]

Hazzben, you pretty much hit on all my major talking points, from the St. Cloud State example in the year UW-W first won it all, to the idea that really good D-III teams have players who could have played FCS, II or NAIA, but FCS teams have entire rosters full. D-III wouldn't be able to match their depth, and over the course of a game or a season, line play and special teams would generally favor the team who gets first crack at recruiting the best players.

A D-III could win from time to time in say, D-II, but I don't think consistently without the scholarships, facilities and insitutional support to match its opponents. Common sense, right?

A great and current example on all these comparisons is McMurry, which lost 82-6 to FCS No. 14 Stephen F. Austin last year, then followed up by beating FCS start-up UT-San Antonio, 24-14, then went on to make the D-III playoffs, losing only to UMHB, both in the regular season and playoffs, and SFA. (link to their 2011 schedule)

What's interesting, and this is the first time I've looked, is that McMurry followed its 9-3 last season in D-III with an 8-3 debut in D-II. They played literally none of the same teams, and not all are traditional D-IIs either, but had the same coach and quarterback (Mumme, Mullin). Presumably also a lot of the same players, though now getting partial scholarships. Maybe Ralph Turner could speak to this; I have done no research other than what's presented here.

One last thing that's probably of interest in the comparing divisions aspect of this thread. There used to be an ATN item that tracked it and offered little insights on how the divisions compared. Over time, it became clear that things broke down exactly like you'd expect they might. FCS>II>III>NAIA. By 2010, it wasn't even close, so I did away with the item this year.

That thread still exists though, and a very similar conversation to the one on this page takes place on pages 2 and 3 (link), and the rest of that thread is a brief recent history of examples of interdivisional play, which might help you flesh out thoughts here.

[K-Mack]

One thought I wanted to add.

The gap between FCS, II and III is clear, but much less IMO than the gap between a high school team and any college team.

The gap between a BCS conference D-I and a middling D-III is probably equal to what most middling D-IIIs would do to most high school teams, I think, maybe worse. At least BCS vs. DIII would be large men vs. medium-sized men, not men vs. boys.

The comment was made a couple times this week about UMHB at UMU that it was more like a regular college game and less like what people expected a D-III game to be, which you can take as a compliment or insult or both.

[smedindy]

One thing about the Massey ratings is that with just a limited data set, and even more limited cross-divisional data points, comparisons between divisions are tenuous. It is fun to look at, though, and on paper it does seem that Mt. Union could give Akron or Southern Miss a game. I doubt that Mt. Union could beat them seven times out of 10 if the FBS team was at full strength.

Often times, though, the FBS teams at the bottom aren't at full strength...and then there's what ever the heck happened at Southern Miss this year.

[smedindy]

The comment was made a couple times this week about UMHB at UMU that it was more like a regular college game and less like what people expected a D-III game to be, which you can take as a compliment or insult or both.

Well, it IS a regular college game. The players at Mt. Union and UMHB are just a few inches and pounds and ticks of the watch away from D-1A or D-1AA. That is the elite of our division, and we're proud of them. But the football is best if the teams are evenly matched.  Earlham / Anderson or Knox / Lawrence weren't elite matchups, but they probably were entertaining games with some talented players.

BTW, I think the Seahawks acted like they were the Top Seed in the first round of the D-3 playoffs with the number they put on Arizona!