Top 25 Discussion

[CrashDavisD3]

I really don't have a whole lot to say about the poll since I really only follow the West but a few things stand out to me...

1. Birmingham Southern really had a terrible week and lost 4 in a row but didn't move???

The losses to Adrian and to Ill.Wesleyan may be to teams that will be regionally ranked. Adrian is an in-region game.  How strong is Huntingdon?  That was a good pair of wins for the Hawks.  

2. Oxy getting votes after a 2-3 week, which included getting swept in regional games. But they got some love for the wins over Bridgewater Va and Ithaca.  You are right. Being swept by Cal Lu is big.

3. Trinity moving up 5 spots while going 4-0 with a great win over TLU and 3 over an average Dallas team.

I think that it was Big Poppa who said that this was a hard week for him to vote.  Everyone above Trinity had a sub-optimal week.  They must have "floated up", and not rose to those heights by their outstanding effort.

4. Pomona still getting more votes than Cal Lu.  Cal Lu took 2 of 3 from them already and is better in the SCIAC so far as well as the region.

Yeah, go figure.  Cal Lu won the George Fox series, too.

5. Whitworth not receiving a single vote surprises me.

(But why do you give votes to a team that has a 9-6-1 record against West Region teams and 9-8-1 overall?)

My biggest question is whether or not people (voters) look at the SOS tab on the front page?  I fully understand that many teams are just getting their seasons started but those get updated all the time.

And my question about SOS at this time of the year, is that not every team is in late season form when comparing across the regions.  That is a problem for me some times.  I am glad that they play 40 game schedules to level some of that out.

Thanks for the comments.

Very valid points, Ralph.  Some things I didn't really think of.

Very valid points but 7 losses overall and 4 in a row...I would have dropped the team near the bottom or out of the TOP 25 in my opinon.

[BigPoppa]

I have a vote and I always post my Top 25 (and always welcome the discussion and argument related to my poll). Early polls are always tough to factor and mid-March leaves very uneven factors (often weather related) that make it close to impossible to evaluate the 300+ teams on a level playing surface. By April, things start to even out as the cold-weather teams start piling up games and close the gap on the South and West regions in terms of usable data to help in the evaluation process.

In addition, I also have a lot of contacts throughout the nation that collectively see a lot of D3 games and I truly value their opinions and observations. The trend with many schools now moving towards live video feeds of games also allows me (and probably others) to watch and evaluate teams not playing near where we live.

I attempt to be as transparent as possible, but I do get a lot of "inside info" on teams that I generally do not share for fear of outing my sources (and out of respect for them professionally and personally), but those connections help me evaluate programs. If I leave a team out, there is usually a quantifiable reason.  I love it when people argue my poll as it allows me to keep quality teams on my radar that (let's face it... 300+ teams are tough to follow at times) may or may not be overlooked at times.

[Spence]

In addition, I also have a lot of contacts throughout the nation that collectively see a lot of D3 games and I truly value their opinions and observations. The trend with many schools now moving towards live video feeds of games also allows me (and probably others) to watch and evaluate teams not playing near where we live.

This is definitely true, and I give d3baseball.com a lot of credit for the availability of these. Without it, there might be the live streams, but we might not know about them. I've definitely clicked on a good matchup even if I had no rooting interest just to see what's up. I do it with live stats a lot more because video requires my full attention lol.

[Spence]

I got some ribbing for my placement of CNU on this week's ballot. You can see my votes in tomorrow's Around the Nation column.

Boy you weren't kidding about our ballots being similar! Not identical surely, but similar philosophy, I think.

I was big on CNU coming into the year, but their schedule and some non-quality losses more or less forced me to drop them.

[OshDude]

I got some ribbing for my placement of CNU on this week's ballot. You can see my votes in tomorrow's Around the Nation column.

Boy you weren't kidding about our ballots being similar! Not identical surely, but similar philosophy, I think.

I was big on CNU coming into the year, but their schedule and some non-quality losses more or less forced me to drop them.

I picked CNU to win a regional. Depending on the draw, I still would today. But I treat those picks and top 25 ballots differently. With the ballots I tend to be more reflective than predictive once the season gets underway. Not everyone votes that way, obviously, and my ballot has some predictive votes left over from the preseason.

Most times I relish making the tough calls near the end of ballots. I wish I had a top 30 in Week 4. There were several teams I wanted to include.

[rolln2]

I got some ribbing for my placement of CNU on this week's ballot. You can see my votes in tomorrow's Around the Nation column.

Boy you weren't kidding about our ballots being similar! Not identical surely, but similar philosophy, I think.

I was big on CNU coming into the year, but their schedule and some non-quality losses more or less forced me to drop them.

I think people out there did not take a real hard look at CNU for 2013. This is a very young team w/ only two position starters back from the last two seasons. However their pitching staff is very solid w/ the returners and some key new additions. The USAS starts conference play w/ 3 game series the second weekend of February.  This makes it very tough to schedule strong out of region teams like in previous years. CNU has always carried one of the toughest out of conference schedules in the nation each year. Still this year they are playing the top teams from in region conferences during the mid-week like Salisbury and Bridewater. With that said I think you will see this very young team get better as they play more. Being 14-4 in their conference is pretty good while starting 4 and 5 freshman.

[Spence]

I got some ribbing for my placement of CNU on this week's ballot. You can see my votes in tomorrow's Around the Nation column.

Boy you weren't kidding about our ballots being similar! Not identical surely, but similar philosophy, I think.

I was big on CNU coming into the year, but their schedule and some non-quality losses more or less forced me to drop them.

I think people out there did not take a real hard look at CNU for 2013. This is a very young team w/ only two position starters back from the last two seasons. However their pitching staff is very solid w/ the returners and some key new additions. The USAS starts conference play w/ 3 game series the second weekend of February.  This makes it very tough to schedule strong out of region teams like in previous years. CNU has always carried one of the toughest out of conference schedules in the nation each year. Still this year they are playing the top teams from in region conferences during the mid-week like Salisbury and Bridewater. With that said I think you will see this very young team get better as they play more. Being 14-4 in their conference is pretty good while starting 4 and 5 freshman.

The USAS tried to monkey with their scheduling a few years back and only did 2 game series so they'd have more pitching for midweek games against in-region teams from conferences that only played 2 game series. I guess they decided that wasn't working out.

Losing 2 of 3 to LaGrange, even away, was when I really started to think twice. Before that I was willing to give them the benefit of doubt like Salisbury, who also has a very weak SOS. I think CNU could be a very good team and I don't think I'd want to see them in the first game or two of a regional, but right now they haven't proven enough to make my personal list (as far as I know, my ballot wasn't used in the top 25).

[doodlesdad]

Amazing! I never seriously believed in parallel universes before. That's until I reviewed this week's two D3 baseball polls.

I've followed polls at a lot of levels, and there are always differences, but never they way they are between the D3 poll and the ABCA poll.

Biggest case in point: George Fox (Ore.),  the Northwest Conference leader, is eighth in the ABCA poll but didn't get a a single vote in the D3 poll. The same is true for Centenary (La.), 25th in ABCA, and Texas Lutheran, 30th in ABCA. The other way around, Wisconsin-Stevens Point is 20th in the D3 poll but got only three votes to rank 50th in ABCA. Those running the polls should be embarrassed if this is the bast they can do.

[BigPoppa]

I have a feeling that which ever poll best suits everyone's favorite team is the one they feel is doing the best job... Regardless of other facts and circumstances that shape either poll.

[Spence]

I have a feeling that which ever poll best suits everyone's favorite team is the one they feel is doing the best job... Regardless of other facts and circumstances that shape either poll.

Eh I have no problem saying so if my team isn't doing very well (pretty sure I rate them lower than either poll right now). No one's goal is to be playing their best baseball in mid-March anyway.

But obviously the best *poll* is the one that looks the most like *my* top 25!

[108 Stitches]

Biggest case in point: George Fox (Ore.),  the Northwest Conference leader, is eighth in the ABCA poll but didn't get a a single vote in the D3 poll. The same is true for Centenary (La.), 25th in ABCA, and Texas Lutheran, 30th in ABCA. The other way around, Wisconsin-Stevens Point is 20th in the D3 poll but got only three votes to rank 50th in ABCA. Those running the polls should be embarrassed if this is the bast they can do.

dodles, I think the reason for Centenary not being ranked in the D3 poll is the fact that they are transitional, so the D3 folks don't rank them.(or at least I believe this)  I personally think this is wrong and they should be ranked like all other D3 teams, even though they can not move to a Regional. The program and the kids should get the recognition IMO.

[Mike Falk]

doodlesdad -

Why should anyone be embarrassed? The difference in the polls points to the difficulty in evaluating teams that have played more than half their schedule vs. team that have only played a few games. Do you vote on performance or potential, results or reputation? Different voters have different philosophies, so early in the year this is going to happen. As others have written, this will change when the cold weather schools get more games under their belts, and the polls should be more similar.

[Hammer Ball]

doodlesdad -

Why should anyone be embarrassed? The difference in the polls points to the difficulty in evaluating teams that have played more than half their schedule vs. team that have only played a few games. Do you vote on performance or potential, results or reputation? Different voters have different philosophies, so early in the year this is going to happen. As others have written, this will change when the cold weather schools get more games under their belts, and the polls should be more similar.

Definitely no need for pollsters to be embarrased - Mike hit the nail(s) on the head(s) - plus its all for fun.  Enjoy the games!

[Spence]

Biggest case in point: George Fox (Ore.),  the Northwest Conference leader, is eighth in the ABCA poll but didn't get a a single vote in the D3 poll. The same is true for Centenary (La.), 25th in ABCA, and Texas Lutheran, 30th in ABCA. The other way around, Wisconsin-Stevens Point is 20th in the D3 poll but got only three votes to rank 50th in ABCA. Those running the polls should be embarrassed if this is the bast they can do.

dodles, I think the reason for Centenary not being ranked in the D3 poll is the fact that they are transitional, so the D3 folks don't rank them.(or at least I believe this)  I personally think this is wrong and they should be ranked like all other D3 teams, even though they can not move to a Regional. The program and the kids should get the recognition IMO.

My reason for not ranking them is that I don't think they're good enough to be ranked.

Were teams like UT Tyler and Birmingham Southern included in the polls when they were in their provisional periods?

Covenant would be another one to consider.

[BigPoppa]

Biggest case in point: George Fox (Ore.),  the Northwest Conference leader, is eighth in the ABCA poll but didn't get a a single vote in the D3 poll. The same is true for Centenary (La.), 25th in ABCA, and Texas Lutheran, 30th in ABCA. The other way around, Wisconsin-Stevens Point is 20th in the D3 poll but got only three votes to rank 50th in ABCA. Those running the polls should be embarrassed if this is the bast they can do.

dodles, I think the reason for Centenary not being ranked in the D3 poll is the fact that they are transitional, so the D3 folks don't rank them.(or at least I believe this)  I personally think this is wrong and they should be ranked like all other D3 teams, even though they can not move to a Regional. The program and the kids should get the recognition IMO.

My reason for not ranking them is that I don't think they're good enough to be ranked.

Were teams like UT Tyler and Birmingham Southern included in the polls when they were in their provisional periods?
Covenant would be another one to consider.

Spence- they were not included in the polls. I only know this because I was VERY high on Birmingham Southern and place them in my top five that season(and they were VERY good that year), but the D3 poll made it clear that the poll was intended for eligible post-season teams. I believe it was eventually put into writing on the poll as a result of my continued efforts to rank them that season.