Top 25 Discussion

[Spence]

Spence has a very long history of seeming undue attention directed toward Trinity.

It may seem undue to you. To me it's completely due because this program is annually ranked higher than it should be because they play a lot of games early in the season and people notice.

Without knowing the logistics of trying to run a top D3program in the vast West Region, and in Texas, with little administration support until recently, he continues to play the game of Trinity "flaming" in the Regional. Well, the fact is Trinity made 7 regionals since 2002 and played in the Championship game 4 times, if I calculate correctly, possibly 5 times.  In the West, probably only Chapman  would have overall    better results since they have the coveted CWS,. Along the way, Trinity has beaten nearly every top team in the West Region and until the SAA split, the top teams in the South including Millsaps and BSC.
They have had the post season results despite a situation of not playing games for about 20 days following the SCAC Championships.
Add to that the individual success of the Trinity program in having players drafted and those players having plenty of success in Milb as well as Summer Wood bat leagues and it seems clear Spence will pick out a loss to Rockford and avoid the great point made by JSG on the quality of the Rockford pitcher in that loss. As tigerfan noted, the goal here is to win and be ready for the SCAC's and win those and do everything possible to be prepared during that 20 day wait.

You want to talk about the quality of the Rockford pitcher? Olivet beat him.

hard to fault a pitcher when he doesnt give up an earned run.

Why is it? Does a guy just stop pitching because there's an error behind him? Doesn't help your own cause when you walk 4 guys in 3 innings.

Time to stop pretending like you were facing an All-American.

[tigerfan_2001]

Spence has a very long history of seeming undue attention directed toward Trinity.

It may seem undue to you. To me it's completely due because this program is annually ranked higher than it should be because they play a lot of games early in the season and people notice.

Without knowing the logistics of trying to run a top D3program in the vast West Region, and in Texas, with little administration support until recently, he continues to play the game of Trinity "flaming" in the Regional. Well, the fact is Trinity made 7 regionals since 2002 and played in the Championship game 4 times, if I calculate correctly, possibly 5 times.  In the West, probably only Chapman  would have overall    better results since they have the coveted CWS,. Along the way, Trinity has beaten nearly every top team in the West Region and until the SAA split, the top teams in the South including Millsaps and BSC.
They have had the post season results despite a situation of not playing games for about 20 days following the SCAC Championships.
Add to that the individual success of the Trinity program in having players drafted and those players having plenty of success in Milb as well as Summer Wood bat leagues and it seems clear Spence will pick out a loss to Rockford and avoid the great point made by JSG on the quality of the Rockford pitcher in that loss. As tigerfan noted, the goal here is to win and be ready for the SCAC's and win those and do everything possible to be prepared during that 20 day wait.

You want to talk about the quality of the Rockford pitcher? Olivet beat him.

hard to fault a pitcher when he doesnt give up an earned run.

Why is it? Does a guy just stop pitching because there's an error behind him? Doesn't help your own cause when you walk 4 guys in 3 innings.

Time to stop pretending like you were facing an All-American.

thanks, but i haven't played in a long long time, i wasn't facing anyone.  And to answer your question, no, you dont stop pitching just because someone makes an error.  However, that is the reason for the ERA, as in runs that were your fault. 

Isn't your big thing to judge teams on who they have played?  Why would you bring up the fact that Rockford lost to Olivet, who is 5-3 on the year and has played the 25th hardest schedule.  Seems losing to them isnt a bad thing.

[infielddad]

My gosh Spence, he got the loss to Olivet when he came on in relief, gave up 0 earned runs, and did so on 3 days rest following a 7 inning opening game in which  the kid gave up one run and threw almost 100 pitches in his first outing of the season.
JSG is right with the very best on the knowledge of the West Region.  Trinity does not play in the championship game of the West Regional so many times by being overrated.  They beat darn good teams every year in every Regional but you can pick stuff out just like you did with the loss to Olivet and continue to criticize.
Doesn't bother anyone because JSG posts such solid information with clear objectivity and no axe to grind..

[Spence]

Isn't your big thing to judge teams on who they have played?  Why would you bring up the fact that Rockford lost to Olivet, who is 5-3 on the year and has played the 25th hardest schedule.  Seems losing to them isnt a bad thing.

I don't think Olivet has ever won their league. If they have, it's been a long time.

[tigerfan_2001]

Isn't your big thing to judge teams on who they have played?  Why would you bring up the fact that Rockford lost to Olivet, who is 5-3 on the year and has played the 25th hardest schedule.  Seems losing to them isnt a bad thing.

I don't think Olivet has ever won their league. If they have, it's been a long time.

so now we are going based on history, is that how you define a good team?

[CrashDavisD3]

Seems we have strayed a bit from the TOP 25 TOPIC....

[tigerfan_2001]

Seems we have strayed a bit from the TOP 25 TOPIC....

good point....partly my fault. back on topic.

[Spence]

My gosh Spence, he got the loss to Olivet when he came on in relief, gave up 0 earned runs, and did so on 3 days rest following a 7 inning opening game in which  the kid gave up one run and threw almost 100 pitches in his first outing of the season.
JSG is right with the very best on the knowledge of the West Region.  Trinity does not play in the championship game of the West Regional so many times by being overrated.  They beat darn good teams every year in every Regional but you can pick stuff out just like you did with the loss to Olivet and continue to criticize.
Doesn't bother anyone because JSG posts such solid information with clear objectivity and no axe to grind..

Yeah 2 = so many times. Pretty sure I already debunked the "4-5 times in 7 years" myth.

I would appreciate it if you would not respond to anything I post in the future. I'm tired of the insults and accusations and it's junk like this that caused me to get banned last time and I don't want it to happen again. Let me be on the record that I am trying to end this conversation before any further personal attacks are lodged against me.

I have simply given my assessment of a team's resume with regard to national ranking. I have not made it anything personal about any team, coach, or player. I do not deserve the accusations of personal bias. Everyone has bias, every single person on this board. That doesn't mean it's personal. It just means we have different frames of reference and depth and breadth of knowledge. I think mine is pretty deep and broad of all regions having followed them for 15 or so years now and being a part of a program heritage that goes back much further than that. D3baseball.com makes it a lot easier than it used to be.

I could say more about other parts of the post but that might spark a legitimate reason for reply that I don't want to give.

It's unfortunate that there is one particular fan group that has consistently shown an inability to thicken their skins. I've said the same things about other teams and haven't gotten any backlash about it.

And now, I hope this is over and we can return to civil discussion.

[Spence]

Isn't your big thing to judge teams on who they have played?  Why would you bring up the fact that Rockford lost to Olivet, who is 5-3 on the year and has played the 25th hardest schedule.  Seems losing to them isnt a bad thing.

I don't think Olivet has ever won their league. If they have, it's been a long time.

so now we are going based on history, is that how you define a good team?

EDIT: Never mind that's probably not a good idea on a college sports board.

Btw, I forgot how long the MIAA's been around...Olivet has won at least a share of the championship 5 times...twice in the last 98 years. Don't think too many are banking on this being their year either.

[tigerfan_2001]

Isn't your big thing to judge teams on who they have played?  Why would you bring up the fact that Rockford lost to Olivet, who is 5-3 on the year and has played the 25th hardest schedule.  Seems losing to them isnt a bad thing.

I don't think Olivet has ever won their league. If they have, it's been a long time.

so now we are going based on history, is that how you define a good team?

EDIT: Never mind that's probably not a good idea on a college sports board.

Btw, I forgot how long the MIAA's been around...Olivet has won at least a share of the championship 5 times...twice in the last 98 years. Don't think too many are banking on this being their year either.

thanks for the history lesson.  also glad to know that history is what defines how good a team is currently.  will keep that in mind.

[Spence]

Isn't your big thing to judge teams on who they have played?  Why would you bring up the fact that Rockford lost to Olivet, who is 5-3 on the year and has played the 25th hardest schedule.  Seems losing to them isnt a bad thing.

I don't think Olivet has ever won their league. If they have, it's been a long time.

so now we are going based on history, is that how you define a good team?

EDIT: Never mind that's probably not a good idea on a college sports board.

Btw, I forgot how long the MIAA's been around...Olivet has won at least a share of the championship 5 times...twice in the last 98 years. Don't think too many are banking on this being their year either.

thanks for the history lesson.  also glad to know that history is what defines how good a team is currently.  will keep that in mind.

I just looked at their supposed tough schedule...you make me laugh. Ignorance is bliss, I suppose.

[tigerfan_2001]

Isn't your big thing to judge teams on who they have played?  Why would you bring up the fact that Rockford lost to Olivet, who is 5-3 on the year and has played the 25th hardest schedule.  Seems losing to them isnt a bad thing.

I don't think Olivet has ever won their league. If they have, it's been a long time.

so now we are going based on history, is that how you define a good team?

EDIT: Never mind that's probably not a good idea on a college sports board.

Btw, I forgot how long the MIAA's been around...Olivet has won at least a share of the championship 5 times...twice in the last 98 years. Don't think too many are banking on this being their year either.

thanks for the history lesson.  also glad to know that history is what defines how good a team is currently.  will keep that in mind.

I just looked at their supposed tough schedule...you make me laugh. Ignorance is bliss, I suppose.

you commented that the guy that beat Trinity lost to Olivet, implying that Olivet is not very good.  They are 5-3, according to d3baseball and their SOS is 46th.  That seems like a pretty good record with a challenging schedule.  Not sure why you laugh at it.

[Spence]

Isn't your big thing to judge teams on who they have played?  Why would you bring up the fact that Rockford lost to Olivet, who is 5-3 on the year and has played the 25th hardest schedule.  Seems losing to them isnt a bad thing.

I don't think Olivet has ever won their league. If they have, it's been a long time.

so now we are going based on history, is that how you define a good team?

EDIT: Never mind that's probably not a good idea on a college sports board.

Btw, I forgot how long the MIAA's been around...Olivet has won at least a share of the championship 5 times...twice in the last 98 years. Don't think too many are banking on this being their year either.

thanks for the history lesson.  also glad to know that history is what defines how good a team is currently.  will keep that in mind.

I just looked at their supposed tough schedule...you make me laugh. Ignorance is bliss, I suppose.

you commented that the guy that beat Trinity lost to Olivet, implying that Olivet is not very good.  They are 5-3, according to d3baseball and their SOS is 46th.  That seems like a pretty good record with a challenging schedule.  Not sure why you laugh at it.

That you don't get it is part of why it's funny. All of these gymnastics to excuse a loss to a team ranked closer closer to 200 to 100 in the ISRs is funny enough.

Let's end this and revisit in a month or so. I (along with everyone else no doubt) have grown tired of restating what should be obvious.

[CrashDavisD3]

Well there's been George Fox, who actually won it all, and Linfield made a respectable showing in Appleton. CUA has been there as well. So I wouldn't say that no one besides Chapman has shown anything. I don't think it's too much different than how Marietta has dominated the Mideast...other programs have made the series and shown well, but no one else has won a championship.

I just want to see the programs that make an effort and play a reasonably challenging schedule to be given credit for that. I don't know where you're supposed to rank Trinity right now because I just don't know how you're supposed to know anything about them. It's about like UW-Oshkosh or Otterbein right now...only 28 games into the season. I've got Otterbein something like 6th in the Mideast right now and that won't change until they play someone good. I imagine Midwest region observers have a similar "I'm from Missouri" attitude about Oshkosh. Hard to see them any higher than 5th.

Trinity has historically played a challenging schedule, but this year the stars aligned and has made it weaker. This is not their fault. Geographically they have limitations, but they do a home/away every year with Chapman who is historically one of the top teams in the country.

As far as knowing about the team, last year it was one game short of going to Appleton, they lost their number two pitcher late in the year which most feel if he was healthy they would have had the arms to get though. This year they only lost two key players (Number 1 pitcher, and number 3 hole hitter) You keep pointing out they lost to a 2-10 team and as others have posted they got beat by a good pitcher in a 4 game series that they otherwise completely dominated. It happens.

So for this year, the rest of the squad is back with some strong freshmen contributing, along with the expected growth of the rest of the team. They have a much improved offense, with one of the top offensive players in DIII ball. Their pitching is significantly deeper, with a dominant number one, (not quite as dominant as last year) but they have 2-5 pitchers with a strong bull pen and two late inning closer types. (actually maybe three now) They are not as good defensively this year, which is perplexing given the same guys are back, but it is what it is.

So from a "potential" standpoint and performance against the top teams they have played they are playing like a top ten team nationally, which is why they are ranked where they are. Are they a number 1 or 2 team in the country? Not IMO, but they are certainly a top 10 team and probably the second best team in the West. They will continue to develop and lets see what happens in 6 weeks.

While they have not broken through to Appleton they are always very competitive and there a certainly a lot of DIII teams that wish they had their success.

Trinity has never played (or perhaps I should say rarely in case there was a time I don't remember) what I would call a strong schedule. I can remember making this critique in the past and being criticized for it but it hasn't burned me yet.

This year is even worse. Why isn't Trinity playing Tyler? Why did they play 4 games against Rockford? They also could have played more games on their road trip west like some of the New Jersey and New York teams do. Get a few teams together and meet somewhere and play some games. I'm not too convinced that Trinity is playing the toughest schedule it could, even considering the circumstances. La Roche played at Marietta today on one day's notice. John Carroll played a few games in Beckley, W.Va. to try to get games in. Some teams play at 2 a.m. in the Metrodome. Huntingdon and Montclair went to Ohio to play 3 games. You do what you have to do. It's only going to be more important next year when every game counts the same for NCAA criteria.

As for what Trinity had last year, one might see that as a reason to doubt them this year. How often does a team that didn't win their region lose a first-team All-American pitcher that was draft quality and win their regional for the first time ever in the next year?

Does it hurt there Trinity that their last game could be April 28th for SCAC Championship and then not play until May 15-18 for Regional. That is OVER 2 WEEKS not playing another team....Makes it hard to get thru a regional. I see it as being their number 1 problem in prior years not winning a regional.

Also teams can win a regional without their #1 All American pitcher available. Chapman did in 2009. Also in 2011 Chapman got to the Championship game also without the 3 time #1 All American pitcher.

[Spence]

Does it hurt there Trinity that their last game could be April 28th for SCAC Championship and then not play until May 15-18 for Regional. That is OVER 2 WEEKS not playing another team....Makes it hard to get thru a regional. I see it as being their number 1 problem in prior years not winning a regional.

Also teams can win a regional without their #1 All American pitcher available. Chapman did in 2009. Also in 2011 Chapman got to the Championship game also without the 3 time #1 All American pitcher.

Yep. And Marietta in 2002 without DeSalvo finished 2nd as well. One could say those might have been the two best teams in the past x number of years not to win a championship. The teams that did win the championship in both cases though were very worthy.

As for the break in between...again, they are not prohibited from scheduling and playing games during that time. That they choose not to is no excuse in my mind. If you fancy yourself a program that expects to compete the regional level, then schedule like you don't expect your last game to be the conference tournament.

There are other options as well. Trinity's coaches are paid better than I am to manage their program, and so I'll keep them to myself.