2013 West Regional - Austin Tx

[CrashDavisD3]

Pitch counts, inning pitched and rest days mean nothing in playoff baseball.

I agree...but +/- 200 pitches over 4 days isn't very smart.

Smart is not in the discussion. Same thing happens in D1 ball also with pitch counts north of 130 many times for many teams. Many College coaches is all about the Winning and very rarely is thinking about next year or future pro prospects. Not all coaches are that way but look at the pitch counts for NCAA Regionals and World Series at all 3 levels and you find high pitch counts and little rest for some pitchers.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/columns/story?columnist=schlabach_mark&id=4252555

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/722716-college-baseball-world-series-2011-news-results-and-analysis/entry/101810-college-baseball-world-series-are-pitch-counts-needed-for-college-baseball

http://www.newsobserver.com/2010/06/04/514204/coaches-dilemma-pitch-counts.html

The Bleacher Report article (like most BR articles) is trash. Though it's funny because I watched Matthew Price in high school and Legion ball in SC (he was their #3 pitcher as a rising junior!) and 100 pitches was not a problem for him -- he has such a sturdy build, very strong lower body. He would have been physically ready for pro ball as a soph at SC.

Also worth mentioning is that Price didn't pitch as a pro in 2012 after 77IP in the college season.

Quoted in the other two articles is Mike Fox, who as probably many here know is a former Division III national champion coach (and might as well get half credit -- or more -- for another).

I have seen pitchers personally pitch on 1 day rest and also pitch north or 130 pitches in different years in Regionals and DIII CWS.

[dp643]

Pitch counts, inning pitched and rest days mean nothing in playoff baseball.

I agree...but +/- 200 pitches over 4 days isn't very smart.

Smart is not in the discussion. Same thing happens in D1 ball also with pitch counts north of 130 many times for many teams. Many College coaches is all about the Winning and very rarely is thinking about next year or future pro prospects. Not all coaches are that way but look at the pitch counts for NCAA Regionals and World Series at all 3 levels and you find high pitch counts and little rest for some pitchers.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/columns/story?columnist=schlabach_mark&id=4252555

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/722716-college-baseball-world-series-2011-news-results-and-analysis/entry/101810-college-baseball-world-series-are-pitch-counts-needed-for-college-baseball

http://www.newsobserver.com/2010/06/04/514204/coaches-dilemma-pitch-counts.html

The Bleacher Report article (like most BR articles) is trash. Though it's funny because I watched Matthew Price in high school and Legion ball in SC (he was their #3 pitcher as a rising junior!) and 100 pitches was not a problem for him -- he has such a sturdy build, very strong lower body. He would have been physically ready for pro ball as a soph at SC.

Also worth mentioning is that Price didn't pitch as a pro in 2012 after 77IP in the college season.

Quoted in the other two articles is Mike Fox, who as probably many here know is a former Division III national champion coach (and might as well get half credit -- or more -- for another).

I have seen pitchers personally pitch on 1 day rest and also pitch north or 130 pitches in different years in Regionals and DIII CWS.

And I disagree with it whenever it happens.

[CrashDavisD3]

Pitch counts, inning pitched and rest days mean nothing in playoff baseball.

I agree...but +/- 200 pitches over 4 days isn't very smart.

Smart is not in the discussion. Same thing happens in D1 ball also with pitch counts north of 130 many times for many teams. Many College coaches is all about the Winning and very rarely is thinking about next year or future pro prospects. Not all coaches are that way but look at the pitch counts for NCAA Regionals and World Series at all 3 levels and you find high pitch counts and little rest for some pitchers.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/columns/story?columnist=schlabach_mark&id=4252555

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/722716-college-baseball-world-series-2011-news-results-and-analysis/entry/101810-college-baseball-world-series-are-pitch-counts-needed-for-college-baseball

http://www.newsobserver.com/2010/06/04/514204/coaches-dilemma-pitch-counts.html

The Bleacher Report article (like most BR articles) is trash. Though it's funny because I watched Matthew Price in high school and Legion ball in SC (he was their #3 pitcher as a rising junior!) and 100 pitches was not a problem for him -- he has such a sturdy build, very strong lower body. He would have been physically ready for pro ball as a soph at SC.

Also worth mentioning is that Price didn't pitch as a pro in 2012 after 77IP in the college season.

Quoted in the other two articles is Mike Fox, who as probably many here know is a former Division III national champion coach (and might as well get half credit -- or more -- for another).

I have seen pitchers personally pitch on 1 day rest and also pitch north or 130 pitches in different years in Regionals and DIII CWS.

And I disagree with it whenever it happens.

You may disagree but it continue to happen in NCAA baseball in playoff type games. It has been going on for a long time and I would expect it to continue unless the NCAA steps in to change this. Not sure if that will happen anytime soon. Changes were made to the bats to make it it a safer game but will they take steps to do the same for pitchers.

[CrashDavisD3]

http://baseballnews.com/health/are-pitchers-being-coddled-too-much-today/

[Texas Leaguer]

It was around 105-110, my point was that the combination of innings and then to throw 16 in 3 games over 4 days.

110 2/3, the most ever in a season at Trinity. So 109 was too much if he was a pro prospect, but 110 is fine? Weird. Klimesh started a second game in the regional last year...the only he didn't throw 18 innings is because he was ineffective.

It's not solely the total innings pitched, it's time frame in which those innings are thrown as well.

Couple of factors to consider:  At no point in the 2012 season did Klimesh throw 3 out of 4 consecutive days.  Klimesh did start the opening game of the Regional and then again on two days rest (the fourth day of the tournament) where he went 4 innings giving up 2 runs.  A new pitcher started the 5th inning.  It's pure speculation on your part to say he would have thrown more if he wasn't ineffective (4 IP 2 runs is on the way to 6 IP and 3 runs which is considered a quality start).   

I'm having a hard time recalling a coach ever pulling his ace out of a game after 4 innings and 2 runs unless there were other factors involved.  If you're trying to ride a guy for all he's worth since he is by far your best arm that season, you trot him out in the fifth and see if he can give you more.  You don't replace the guy with a 1.7 ERA with a guy that had an 8 ERA.  If he gets in trouble, then you yank him.  The next 4 batters he would have faced were 2-7 with a walk.  One of the hits was an infield single.  The score was 2-1 at that point. 

Personally, I'm very much in agreement with whoever said a player's ceiling should be considered when you're deciding how far you're going to push an arm's limits in a tournament.  If he has the potential to play at the next level, I think it's the coach's obligation to show some restraint on how frequently you use him.  Just because he gives you the best opportunity to win today, doesn't mean you should trot him back out there.  However, if a D3 championship would be the pinnacle of his individual baseball career, I think you can justify pushing the limit.

Scott Brosius is a smart, smart baseball guy.  Each situation is unique.  What Haddeland did was other-wordly in this Regional and I tip my cap to him.  I hope it works out well for both of them in the long-term. 

[dp643]

Theres a gap between being coddled and over used, and I think everyone can agree that he was much closer to the side of overuse.

I dont have a cat in this fight as my team I root for didnt make it far in the conference tournament. I also, if anything, predicted the Texas teams to lay an egg this regional. But you cant sit here with a straight face and defend throwing a kid that many innings/pitches 3 out of 4 days in a tournament. Maybe he can handle it and there will be no ill effects from doing so, but only being a sophmore and potentially the best D3 pitcher (with draft potential), I dont think its worth the risk.

But then again maybe thats why I wouldnt win a regional if I was a coach, who knows.

[108 Stitches]

Personally, I'm very much in agreement with whoever said a player's ceiling should be considered when you're deciding how far you're going to push an arm's limits in a tournament.  If he has the potential to play at the next level, I think it's the coach's obligation to show some restraint on how frequently you use him.  Just because he gives you the best opportunity to win today, doesn't mean you should trot him back out there.  However, if a D3 championship would be the pinnacle of his individual baseball career, I think you can justify pushing the limit.

Exactly my point. In his case it is the peak of his career so go for it.

Hopefully one last point Forheaven, and probably one of the few times I will agree with you, if I was Klimesh's parent I would recommend that he NOT come out to start another game after throwing a complete game two days earlier. I could see him in a save situation with an inning here or there, that's it for a pro prospect. A DIII championship is not worth it in my book to risk a career.

I think it also depends on the individual and throwing program. Some players recover faster than others. Some programs have very extensive conditioning programs to support the innings and short rest, I am sure Linfield probably has a program similar to Trinity's (which is one of the best IMO and I know a lot about this subject) Getting even further off track on this Trinity's program is absolutely leading edge as good as any of the D1 programs I looked at - pilates, yoga, targeted explosive workouts, long toss, bands, sand balls, medicine balls, Coach Smith has blended the best of the best into a comprehensive year round program. IMO this is a huge contributing factor to their success, and if they do go out there they are as prepared as you can be given the circumstances.

I am with DP643 on this one,  I would likely not win a DIII championship and frankly I think there are more important things in life. I wish I was in Appleton this week, but hey there is always next year. 

And to be clear Haddeland rocked and was great.

[dp643]

Personally, I'm very much in agreement with whoever said a player's ceiling should be considered when you're deciding how far you're going to push an arm's limits in a tournament.  If he has the potential to play at the next level, I think it's the coach's obligation to show some restraint on how frequently you use him.  Just because he gives you the best opportunity to win today, doesn't mean you should trot him back out there.  However, if a D3 championship would be the pinnacle of his individual baseball career, I think you can justify pushing the limit.

Exactly my point. In his case it is the peak of his career so go for it.

Hopefully one last point Forheaven, and probably one of the few times I will agree with you, if I was Klimesh's parent I would recommend that he NOT come out to start another game after throwing a complete game two days earlier. I could see him in a save situation with an inning here or there, that's it for a pro prospect. A DIII championship is not worth it in my book to risk a career.

I think it also depends on the individual and throwing program. Some players recover faster than others. Some programs have very extensive conditioning programs to support the innings and short rest, I am sure Linfield probably has a program similar to Trinity's (which is one of the best IMO and I know a lot about this subject) Getting even further off track on this Trinity's program is absolutely leading edge as good as any of the D1 programs I looked at - pilates, yoga, targeted explosive workouts, long toss, bands, sand balls, medicine balls, Coach Smith has blended the best of the best into a comprehensive year round program. IMO this is a huge contributing factor to their success, and if they do go out there they are as prepared as you can be given the circumstances.

I am with DP643 on this one,  I would likely not win a DIII championship and frankly I think there are more important things in life. I wish I was in Appleton this week, but hey there is always next year. 

And to be clear Haddeland rocked and was great.

No doubt he dominated the tournament. What a show he put on.

[NWBaseballFan10]

It's funny that all the talk has been about Haddeland being overused, but no one has mentioned that Speer, for Trinity, threw 152 pitches on Thursday and then threw 20 pitches on Saturday. Now, granted I agree that Haddeland's work load was more extreme, but if you're concerned about him then Speer should be considered in this discussion as well.

As mentioned already, in this thread, coaches don't always base their decisions on # of pitches thrown. A lot of other factors come into play like how many of those innings are considered "stressful" or how many times did the # of pitches in an inning exceed 20-25, etc... I don't think any of those factors came into play in Wednesday's game and, ultimately, that made the decision to use him again in the tournament easier.

[CrashDavisD3]

Regarding Pitch Counts & Innings Pitched

Honestly parents have no say. It is between the coach and the player at this point. Both are adults they will make the decisions and parents really have no business in this discussion.

Also the difference between winning a Regional or a National Championship could be one pitcher throwing those extra pitches or innings.

Almost all players and coaches will do what it takes to win. Those who dont go home many times.

[forheavendial4999]

It was around 105-110, my point was that the combination of innings and then to throw 16 in 3 games over 4 days.

110 2/3, the most ever in a season at Trinity. So 109 was too much if he was a pro prospect, but 110 is fine? Weird. Klimesh started a second game in the regional last year...the only he didn't throw 18 innings is because he was ineffective.

It's not solely the total innings pitched, it's time frame in which those innings are thrown as well.

Couple of factors to consider:  At no point in the 2012 season did Klimesh throw 3 out of 4 consecutive days.  Klimesh did start the opening game of the Regional and then again on two days rest (the fourth day of the tournament) where he went 4 innings giving up 2 runs.  A new pitcher started the 5th inning.  It's pure speculation on your part to say he would have thrown more if he wasn't ineffective (4 IP 2 runs is on the way to 6 IP and 3 runs which is considered a quality start).     

This is extremely misleading and borderline dishonest. Klimesh had walked 4 in 4 innings, given up at least 8 baserunners (can't remember if there were errors or hit batters, but I know there were 4 hits also) and struck out no one. I would hazard to guess that might be the only time he failed to strike out a batter in an outing in his career. He just wasn't effective, and leaving him in at that point was a risk not to him, but to the team's chances of winning. I remember watching the game and he was living on the edge of disaster the whole time. IIRC, he had trouble bouncing back in previous years as well...which is weird because now he's a reliever in the pros. 

And 3 runs in 6IP is not a quality start at this level (and really not at the MLB level, is 4.50 ERA a quality pitcher?). How many games in the West regional this year would 4 runs allowed in 9 innings have won?

[108 Stitches]

Foreheaven.

Let me give you some advice on board etiquette.

You can talk all you want about programs, coaches, situations, games, etc, but when you start denigrating individual players regardless of the level and situation you have crossed the line with me and probably everyone else here.

I suggest you take your arrogance and go somewhere else.

You are really not welcomed here in my book.

Good day sir.

[forheavendial4999]

Foreheaven.

Let me give you some advice on board etiquette.

You can talk all you want about programs, coaches, situations, games, etc, but when you start denigrating individual players regardless of the level and situation you have crossed the line with me and probably everyone else here.

What in the hell are you talking about? Who did I denigrate and how?

And apparently now's when the Trinity fans get butthurt...

[NWBaseballFan10]

if I was Klimesh's parent I would recommend that he NOT come out to start another game after throwing a complete game two days earlier.

I would have loved to hear this conversation between you and Coach Scannell or Coach Smith. 

Honestly parents have no say. It is between the coach and the player at this point. Both are adults they will make the decisions and parents really have no business in this discussion.

Crash is right.

[CrashDavisD3]

Foreheaven.

Let me give you some advice on board etiquette.

You can talk all you want about programs, coaches, situations, games, etc, but when you start denigrating individual players regardless of the level and situation you have crossed the line with me and probably everyone else here.

What in the hell are you talking about? Who did I denigrate and how?

And apparently now's when the Trinity fans get butthurt...

9999 - You need to play nice in the sandbox with the rest of us...Your Karma rating is dropping like a rock....