Top Conferences and NCAA Bids

[All NESCAC]

The NESCAC's wont venture outside close proximity of their campuses for out of league games against new better competition because they only play 14 games, not the typical 18 or 20 as most D3's do.  The NESCAC league is so difficult top to bottom that all NESCAC League games are a huge battle and their really are no "check the box for a Win against"  anyone in the League, thus 10 League games = 10 very difficult games.  Now add on that they only have available 4 non-conference games and each school has their local non-NESCAC rivals 2 are usually tough battles (long standing rivalries) and 2 are usually cup cakes.  I cannot imagine the NESCAC's getting rid of 2 of their non-league games to schedule two additional tough quality national opponents just in the name of competition because with only a 14 game schedule it is inherently more difficult for the NESCAC teams to actually get an NCAA bid given their overall winning % is typically lower than many other teams given their 14 game schedule.  Of course if they were to expand to the traditional 18 game schedule, then I'm sure more NESCAC's would be willing to schedule more non-traditional regionally tougher non-league opponents (see Rochester, St Lawrence, Union, whomever....) as they would have additional games and would welcome the challenge against some additional better non-league competition, but not with a 14 game schedule as that could severely hamstring an already difficult attempt to secure NCAA bids and the coaches would be against it (as they are now).   Regarding next year in the NESCAC don't overlook both Trinity (very young this year) and Conn (losing only 3 starters--although replacing Hawkey will be a tall order) from both making runs at spots #3 and #4.  Also, very happy to see the representation NESCAC (multiple teams) received in the D3 All American teams...while no one dominate team in the league this year, although Amherst was the best even though they didn't get to the final four, there was a lot of talent spread amongst the top 7 teams.

[nescac1]

OK, that's fair NCAC, I don't see NESCAC as the indisputable best conference or anything remotely like that -- just in the mix for the top group.  I echo All NESCAC's points about the schedule.  The schools just don't have many free games in any given season, which really is the issue more than those I earlier identified.  The NESCAC is certainly not to blame for NCAA placement in the tourney -- I do note that in the women's tourney this year, NESCAC teams were placed in 3/4 quadrants.  I would have no objection at all to spreading NESCAC teams out further in the men's tourney as well.  But from what I understand a lot of the issue, again, is money.  The NCAA typically tries to limit travel expenses in the D-3 tourney, and there are just so many teams from the Northeastern corner of the country that it is easy to create a bracket packed with teams all in close proximity to one another.  The same thing tends to happen in hoops which is likewise a bummer. 

I believe that Williams (assuming they find a good goalie) will be MUCH improved next year.  They return virtually everyone of note save for their goalie, including three of their better defenders / holding midfielders, all of whom were injured either prior to or during the season and out for the Messiah game.  They seem to have some incoming frosh who are capable finishers, which should help take pressure off Rashid.  Williams was a year ahead of schedule this year I think, and I believe will be far more competitive (albeit nowhere near Messiah's level still) vs. elite competition next season.  Amherst loses some very good defenders but returns all of its attackers and brings back a very dynamic playmaking midfielder who was also out for the entire season, and the Jeffs also return Bull who is going to likely be the best goalie in the country.  I think both of those teams and maybe Tufts as well will represent NESCAC very well next season. 

[PaulNewman]

It is certainly fine to list all of the reasons why something can't or won't happen.  But then it's also fair for there to be consequences for all those things.  It's not Calvin's or North Park's or DePauw's fault if the NESCAC teams by virtue of some ancient etched-in-stone law can't play more than 14 games.  Of course EVERY team needs a couple of cupcakes, and a few NESCACs do play Brandeis, Wheaton (MA), MIT and the WNECs, ESCUs, RWUs and Gordons close by, so I don't fault them at all for those games.  They need to go to at least 16 games, with a decent to good opponent and a cupcake or two good opponents. 

Also, in these discussions, it is hard to decide if the NESCAC is overhyped or underappreciated.  The pro-NESCAC folks ALWAYS talk about how tough and bloody the conference is from top to bottom with the claim that the losses pile up because of beating each other up.  Is there an easy game in the NJAC?  The bottom team, Kean, beat Kenyon (albeit on a fortuitous OT goal) and I believe Haverford.  You can't make a similar comparison with the bottom NESCAC teams.  Do you think the mid-table Centennial teams are easy?  Calvin began the season with OWU, Kenyon, Loras, Hope.

All that said, expect the NESCAC to get at least 3 and probably 4 bids next year, and then all will seem right with the world again.  Then again, Wheaton returns almost everyone and will be very good (the huge loss to SLU being an aberration), and expect Gordon to stick around, along with ECSU or WNEC or RWU.  Sleeper team will be UMass-Dartmouth.

[LaPaz]

Nescac is going to 15 games next year.  I am and always will be a Nescac supporter but the league has been top heavy for 5-6 years now. Bates was the Nescac team this past year I have seen in a long time. They were undersized and overmatched. Colby the past few years have been unable to score any league goals

[mjdNJDevils]

Frankly, we should probably all agree that using professional players isn't (and won't any time soon) be a good point for argument at the D3 level.  Not taking anything at all away of the players listed, but counting for instance Nick Armington's 2006 signing by Real Salt Lake's dev squad and making a career 0 starts is dubious at best, and we'll not even discuss the state of US soccer pre-1996.  That's not a knock on getting there, because everyone respects what it takes just to even get a look in, but I think recent times have told us that many players have a chance at a look in if they want it, but ultimately go the academic and workforce route which is a staple of the D3 game and rightfully so.

The problems I have are that:

1) As other users have further backed with additional supporting evidence as this thread has advanced, the NESCAC is not the only league that shows such depth, and in fact does not even demonstrate the best depth.  I would, in fact, unequivocally give that to the NJAC over the last decade for so many reasons already listed -- consistency of tournament performance, non-conference schedule willingness, success spread against multi-regional tournament opposition, and other factors.

2) I have no sympathy whatsoever, I'm afraid, for the "schedule excuse."  Not even entering play tournament play until 1993 is already a sad state of affairs to begin with, even recognizing the reasons, but ultimately the NESCAC would not be the only ones making sacrifices to play a full slate of games.  Did we not have the same discussions a few short years ago regarding trying to accommodate religious institutions' Sunday games?  There was some protest, but largely if needed schools will play on Sunday now.  This situation is no different to me.  The NESCAC should accept the modern state of the game and run an equivalent schedule. 

3) This is not a personal attack against you or any other NESCAC fan, player, coach, or league/institution representative, but your tone when discussing both sides of the issue is a very NESCAC/New England one.  It was pervasive growing up around me in CT, and it is pervasive in your explanations of why things are the way they stand in terms of scheduling.  "I don't believe they are ever afraid to play top-flight competition, but they definitely (despite having a ton of institutional wealth) have a very limited travel budget, so if reciprocity is part of the deal, it is unlikely to happen."  And why would they be eager to have reciprocity game deals?  When they can typically get 2 teams to the Elite 8 and 1 to the Final Four, expect to compete for national titles, dominate the Director's Cup due to sports most other schools can't even hope to field, etc?  Yet you're first dismissive of the NJAC national titles pre-NESCAC days to the point where one could read what you write as insinuating they never would have happened, offended of my admittedly selective non-use of the Middlebury 2007 title yet immediately claiming the Williams result this year to be a 1-off aberration (conveniently forgetting the 4-0 throttling of Amherst by Stevens in the same round in 2008), highly dismissively-toned of Loras despite their being a Final Four participant in 3 of the past 6 years, losing 2 of those games to Messiah and 2 in OT and having lost to an eventual Final 4 or Finalist-team every season in between, and making a baseless assumption that teams would have to have stipulations to travel to NESCAC schools if such games were available.  The September 2011 meeting between Messiah and OWU says otherwise, with that being their 4th meeting in 11 seasons.  I commentated for a match in 2008 between Redlands and Stevens in Hoboken, NJ.  Messiah competing in the Virginia Beach events.  Heck, the UAA has made their league schedule work despite near-impossible travel distances on a D3-comparative basis.  So it can and will be done.

No one is saying the NESCAC isn't a great league, with a history of great teams, coaches, and players.  But I think the Mountain West CBB example was very fitting.  For me, they've earned their situation by going out and aggressively taking on challenges, just today for instance New Mexico was visiting Kansas.  And I understand the economics and dynamics are vastly different.  But there is a recent trend, Middlebury aside, of out-of-region teams dispatching the believed elite sides from New England, sometimes in very convincing fashion.  I might sound harsh, but I don't think I'm unjustified in asking the NESCAC to get with the times and prove it, and the NCAA to oblige that fact and spread them out in the bracket.

[mjdNJDevils]

Just as a discussion point for the group, thought I'd look up and post the numbers for the NESCAC in the tournament since 2008 (can't find any older brackets to run the tally on).  The draws are matches that went to PKs, win or lose.

Overall:  15-9-2

Home:  6-1
Away:  4-1-2
Neutral (overall):  5-7
Neutral (w/shorter travel):  2-1
Neutral (w/ longer travel):  3-5
Not AMH,WIL,MID:  1-4-1

So, while certainly the NESCAC has performed overall quite admirably, there is some support for the pause from some members of the board.  In recent years, the non-traditional conference powers have struggled regardless of the opposition, and winning on a neutral field for all sides has proven a challenge. 

[frank uible]

The bottom line is that the NESCAC powers-that-be are not and will not be influenced by what has been, is or will be said on these boards.

[PaulNewman]

Hopefully no schools are making decisions based on what is on these boards or any other internet chat forums.  But that doesn't mean they shouldn't be moved by the issues raised, which I'm sure are discussed at high levels on a fairly regular basis.  The academic elite argument for NESCAC never changing is a great one....until, as Midwest references above, one brings the UAA into the discussion.  The UAA easily matches the NESCAC in terms of academic eliteness from top to bottom and travels more by plane than bus from Atlanta to St Louis to New York to Pittsburgh/Cleveland to Rochester and Boston.  The Centennial is loaded with schools in the same academic tier as well, as is the Liberty and to some degree the NCAC.  What the other conferences with elite academic schools don't have, at least not to the degree of the NESCAC, are vestiges of a boarding school sensibility/arrogance which is the very thing that makes many take a not so sympathetic approach to NESCAC complaints (like not enough bids this year because the conference is too darn tough and good and/or has untouchable standards in regards to participation that will never change).  In short, such whinings run the strong risk of sounding like the very wealthiest persons complaining that they could and should be even wealthier than the rest of us if only the rules were bent more favorably in their direction.

[PaulNewman]

BTW, one thing the NESCAC could do that they won't do because no one is listening, especially since moving to 11 teams with the addition of Hamilton, is to have teams play only 8 conference games and/or get rid of the tournament.  The schedules could rotate to ensure that a school never goes more than a year without playing all of the fellow members.  Sure, a team might have a tougher schedule one year than a fellow member but that could be more than made up for in terms of chances to get a bid via the additional non-league games that can be added.  Certain rivalries could remain intact, like 2 or 3 teams that you always play (Williams vs Amherst; Colby vs Bates and Bowdoin, etc).

[frank uible]

Some more unsolicited advice to NESCAC and its supporters - say nothing, smile a lot and continue doing as you damn well please.

[PaulNewman]

Not sure what your point is.  A poster or two suggests that NESCAC is not as dominant as some might think, some NESCAC posters object by citing the substantial barriers that NESCAC schools face, and a couple of posters suggest ways those barriers might be removed.

Does your advice only apply to the NESCAC?  Or can everyone do as they damn well please?

Of course the NESCAC will do as it pleases.  But is it possible there are changes that are in its self-interest, that NESCAC athletic programs might actually desire?  I think that's what we were discussing, options that might benefit THEM (and not the rest of us).

[Mr. Ypsi]

But NESCAC is so far above we mere mortals, how can we advise them?

[All NESCAC]

But NESCAC is so far above we mere mortals, how can we advise them?

Ahh , you speak the truth grasshopper.

[PaulNewman]

With apologies to Professor Uible, the more I think about it the more I like the idea of an 8 game NESCAC schedule.  We have a conference where the teams play less games than everyone else while having one of the largest in terms of total teams.  NESCAC loyalists lament that their hands are tied in terms of a more substantial and possibly more attractive non-conference schedule.   Playing less in-conference game is the solution.  One of the attractive things about UAA is only 7 conference games leaving tons of options in terms of out-of-conference scheduling.  So the NESCAC problem is fixed, for no charge.

[All NESCAC]

With apologies to Professor Uible, the more I think about it the more I like the idea of an 8 game NESCAC schedule.  We have a conference where the teams play less games than everyone else while having one of the largest in terms of total teams.  NESCAC loyalists lament that their hands are tied in terms of a more substantial and possibly more attractive non-conference schedule.   Playing less in-conference game is the solution.  One of the attractive things about UAA is only 7 conference games leaving tons of options in terms of out-of-conference scheduling.  So the NESCAC problem is fixed, for no charge.

Fixed in theory.  Reality, unfortunately, is the NESCAC 10 game League schedule is here to stay and won't be changing, however the good news is they have expanded to 15 games, thus allowing an additional non-conference game to be played.  My guess is most of the NESCAC's schedule another local game (hopefully against Brandeis, Wheaton, WNEC, Gordon...)and avoid another out of region tough match up (ie Mesiah, Rochester, Kenyon, Ohio Wesleyan....).  Hopefully with this additional game some out of region competitive teams will invite some of the NESCAC's to travel to an early season (labor Day?) 2 game tournament.