East Decade Team (03-13)

[Jonny Utah]

Fisher alum-

In that Trinity-Hamilton game you caught a "few years back" did you summize that Trinity could not compete in your conference?

Against Hamilton, Trinity typically leaves their starters in until about the 3rd quarter, ..... that's just not a valid look for you. Hamilton struggles in the NESCAC - too bad you couldn't have seen Trinity against the better competition in the NESCAC over the past 10 years.

At the end of the day you are basing everything on actual comparative scores and NCAA results which I understand but you can't assume victory in games never played.

I have coached and I have scouted. Very often you do not have the benefit of comparative scores or measured performance to evaluate a team or an individual athlete. Sometimes you stand on the field or in the the pressbox and you evaluate a team or a player based on your observations of their individual performance based on your direct observations.

It is possible to make a reasonable, accurate evaluation of the talent level of an individual athlete or a team by watching that team in a number of situations. Team speed, execution, size and toughness etc can be well evaluated by viewing that team only. Similarly, evaluation of individual athletes often takes place visually without benefit of their prior performance in competitve situations(film).

In other words, if a team or player is good you can make a reasonable evaluation of their talent level  without seeing them playing RPI or Utica or Ithaca.

I've seen Trinity, and I've seen you, they can play with you.

(No agenda here- no allegiance to Trinity- but respect their program they are good)

I kind of mentioned it before, but the bottom 3-4 teams in the nescac would be automatic wins for the top teams in the E8, LL, NJAC, or MAC (as they are for Trinity).  There is no chance a SJF, Cortland, Hobart or Del Val would lose to any of those teams.  But Trinity plays them every year.  Put Trinity in the other leagues and they are losing 1 or 2 games a year to the Hartwicks and Rochesters of the d3 world.  They might be able to beat an SJF or Ithaca any given year, but overall I don't see them being one of the best teams in the east over the last 10 years.

[AUPepBand]

Fisher alum-

In that Trinity-Hamilton game you caught a "few years back" did you summize that Trinity could not compete in your conference?

Against Hamilton, Trinity typically leaves their starters in until about the 3rd quarter, ..... that's just not a valid look for you. Hamilton struggles in the NESCAC - too bad you couldn't have seen Trinity against the better competition in the NESCAC over the past 10 years.

At the end of the day you are basing everything on actual comparative scores and NCAA results which I understand but you can't assume victory in games never played.

I have coached and I have scouted. Very often you do not have the benefit of comparative scores or measured performance to evaluate a team or an individual athlete. Sometimes you stand on the field or in the the pressbox and you evaluate a team or a player based on your observations of their individual performance based on your direct observations.

It is possible to make a reasonable, accurate evaluation of the talent level of an individual athlete or a team by watching that team in a number of situations. Team speed, execution, size and toughness etc can be well evaluated by viewing that team only. Similarly, evaluation of individual athletes often takes place visually without benefit of their prior performance in competitve situations(film).

In other words, if a team or player is good you can make a reasonable evaluation of their talent level  without seeing them playing RPI or Utica or Ithaca.

I've seen Trinity, and I've seen you, they can play with you.

(No agenda here- no allegiance to Trinity- but respect their program they are good)

I kind of mentioned it before, but the bottom 3-4 teams in the nescac would be automatic wins for the top teams in the E8, LL, NJAC, or MAC (as they are for Trinity).  There is no chance a SJF, Cortland, Hobart or Del Val would lose to any of those teams.  But Trinity plays them every year.  Put Trinity in the other leagues and they are losing 1 or 2 games a year to the Hartwicks and Rochesters of the d3 world.  They might be able to beat an SJF or Ithaca any given year, but overall I don't see them being one of the best teams in the east over the last 10 years.

Utes makes a good point here. On the other hand, having taken a look at the 11 teams included in the poll, Pep has observed that four of the teams are in the E8, three in the NJAC, two in the LL, one in the MAC and one in the NEFC. Given the fact that the four E8 teams must play each other head-to-head every year, it would seem to Pep that it would be most difficult for an E8 team to post gaudy records over the past decade.

Therefore, Pep is going with Fisher (90-27) of the E8 as the East Decade Team (2003-2012). Fisher is 3-1 in head-to-head with Hobart (79-25) of the LL over the decade, but is 0-4 in head-to-head with Salisbury (81-29), 8-2 in head-to-head with Ithaca (74-33), and 5-5 in head-to-head with Alfred (77-32).

Looking at the Saxons' 2013 schedule, Pep is fascinated that AU must play FIVE of the 11 teams listed in this poll. That's five more than Trinity will face this season. 

[Bombers798891]

Trinity is most likely a very good football team. But to sort of add to/echo something Pep wrote, one of the ways in which we determine relative strengths is by comparing things that are similar.

There's no common ground between Trinity and any of these teams. They may as well be a West Region team for all we know about how they perform against these East teams.

Yes, they have a great record. So? Norwich has a significantly better record than Ithaca these last four years, and I don't think a single person would make any of those Ithaca teams any less than a two-touchdown favorite against the Cadets.

We can use the eye test all we want to talk about the quality of their athletes, etc. But that's not a substitute for actual information based on games that were played between the schools in question, or even common opponenets.

[redhawks]

Very interesting poll. I think you can cut the poll in half and try to go from there.

My top 7 would be:

1. SJF- Most consistent and best postseason performances. 90-27
2. Del Val- Pre 2003 very bad so pool dates help them alot.

The next 5 can go in any order. Salisbury is a curve ball since they really didn't play many east teams in the early years.

3. MSU- 3 NJAC titles (7-3 vs Rowan; 3-7 vs Cortland; 2-0 vs Salisbury)(no losing seasons) 75-30
4. Salisbury- Lost to MSU in 2005 and 2006/ Beat Rowan last year/2-2 vs Del Val/3-0 vs SJF/  81-29
5. Rowan- 4 NJAC titles (6-4 vs Cortland) (1 losing season) 77-31
6. Cortland- 4 NJAC titles (1 season at 0-4 for illegal player use caused 1 losing season) 73-29
7. Hobart-  (1-3 SJF; 0-2 Rowan;0-1 Del Val; 1-0 vs Cortland) 79-25

I dont think Rowan and Salisbury can be put ahead of MSU based on Head to Head. Could easily put Cortland at 3 then push every1 down a spot.

8. Ithaca 74-33 (6-4 vs Alfred)
9. RPI 67-32 (3-7 vs Hobart; 3-1 vs Alfred)
10. Alfred 77-32 (5-5 vs SJF; 4-6 vs Ithaca)
11. Curry- losses to RPI; Hobart; Del Val; SJF; Cortland all by double digits (87-26) record is over inflated

[Jonny Utah]

Very interesting poll. I think you can cut the poll in half and try to go from there.

My top 7 would be:

1. SJF- Most consistent and best postseason performances. 90-27
2. Del Val- Pre 2003 very bad so pool dates help them alot.

The next 5 can go in any order. Salisbury is a curve ball since they really didn't play many east teams in the early years.

3. MSU- 3 NJAC titles (7-3 vs Rowan; 3-7 vs Cortland; 2-0 vs Salisbury)(no losing seasons) 75-30
4. Salisbury- Lost to MSU in 2005 and 2006/ Beat Rowan last year/2-2 vs Del Val/3-0 vs SJF/  81-29
5. Rowan- 4 NJAC titles (6-4 vs Cortland) (1 losing season) 77-31
6. Cortland- 4 NJAC titles (1 season at 0-4 for illegal player use caused 1 losing season) 73-29
7. Hobart-  (1-3 SJF; 0-2 Rowan;0-1 Del Val; 1-0 vs Cortland) 79-25

I dont think Rowan and Salisbury can be put ahead of MSU based on Head to Head. Could easily put Cortland at 3 then push every1 down a spot.

8. Ithaca 74-33 (6-4 vs Alfred)
9. RPI 67-32 (3-7 vs Hobart; 3-1 vs Alfred)
10. Alfred 77-32 (5-5 vs SJF; 4-6 vs Ithaca)
11. Curry- losses to RPI; Hobart; Del Val; SJF; Cortland all by double digits (87-26) record is over inflated

Let's take our homer hats off for one second with Montclair.

MSU has basically done nothing nationally in the last 10 years.  They generally don't play a tough out of conference schedule, and the NJAC hasn't done much recently either (including being a conference with a lot of easy wins each year).  How you can rank them over Hobart is beyond me, and according to what I'm looking at, they have had 3 .500 seasons in that decade. 

(You also forgot to mention that Ithaca has a similar record in that decade, and are 1-0 vs. MSU)

You also have to remember that many of these teams records vs. Rowan (like Hobarts), were in seasons where Rowan was national ranked and these games were playoff games.  So comparing MSUs 7-3 record vs. Rowan vs. Hobarts 0-2 record vs. Rowan is sort of misleading.

[Knightstalker]

I am an NJAC homer but I can't pick any of the NJAC teams at the top.  In my opinion it is between Hobart and SJF and Salisbury should not be on this list as they were a South team until a couple of years ago. 

[Jonny Utah]

Since I had some free time today, I broke down the teams on this list and how many times (games) from 2003-2012 each team lost a game by 15 points or more  (Not sure how much these stats mean but I took a look anyway):

6: SJF
7: Hobart and DelVall
8: Rowan and RPI
9: Cortland
10: Ithaca and Salisbury
12: Curry and Alfred
13: Montclair

Regular Season

3: Hobart
4: SJF and DelVal
6: Rowan, RPI and Cortland
7: Curry
8: Salisbury
9: Ithaca and Montclair
10: Alfred

Playoffs

1: Ithaca
2: SJF, Alfred, Salisbury, Rowan, RPI
3: Cortland and DelVal
4: Montclair and Hobart
5: Curry

[Knightstalker]

Since I had some free time today, I broke down the teams on this list and how many times (games) from 2003-2012 each team lost a game by 15 points or more  (Not sure how much these stats mean but I took a look anyway):

6: SJF
7: Hobart and DelVall
8: Rowan and RPI
9: Cortland
10: Ithaca and Salisbury
12: Curry and Alfred
13: Montclair

Regular Season

3: Hobart
4: SJF and DelVal
6: Rowan, RPI and Cortland
7: Curry
8: Salisbury
9: Ithaca and Montclair
10: Alfred

Playoffs

1: Ithaca
2: SJF, Alfred, Salisbury, Rowan, RPI
3: Cortland and DelVal
4: Montclair and Hobart
5: Curry

How many of those were to Mount Union or Wesely?

[Jonny Utah]

Since I had some free time today, I broke down the teams on this list and how many times (games) from 2003-2012 each team lost a game by 15 points or more  (Not sure how much these stats mean but I took a look anyway):

6: SJF
7: Hobart and DelVall
8: Rowan and RPI
9: Cortland
10: Ithaca and Salisbury
12: Curry and Alfred
13: Montclair

Regular Season

3: Hobart
4: SJF and DelVal
6: Rowan, RPI and Cortland
7: Curry
8: Salisbury
9: Ithaca and Montclair
10: Alfred

Playoffs

1: Ithaca
2: SJF, Alfred, Salisbury, Rowan, RPI
3: Cortland and DelVal
4: Montclair and Hobart
5: Curry

How many of those were to Mount Union or Wesely?

Come on KS.  I have a lot of time on my hand, but not that much time!

But it looked like many of those playoff losses (and one of SJF regular season monkeystomps) was to MUC.  I'm going to guess 8 of them over all to MUC?

[boobyhasgameyo]

Fisher is a very lovely 0-4 against Mount Union with 3 monkey stomps attributed.  Two in the regular season and one in the playoffs. 

The only teams outside of Mount Union to beat Fisher by more than 15 in the past decade were:

Springfield in 2006 won by 17 defeating Fisher 55-38
Salisbury in 2009 wob by 18 defeating Fisher 38-20
Hobart in 2011 won by 36 defeating Fisher 56-20
Salisbury in 2011 won by 20 defeating Fisher 41-21
St. Thomas in 2011 won by 35 defeating Fisher 45-10

Basically our 2011 team was the only team in the past decade to get its teeth really kicked in by someone outside of Mount Union.  How nice of them to accomplish the dubious distinction a couple of times. 

 

[fisheralum91]

Lumbercat- perhaps the game I say wasn't the best gauge of Trinity's talent.  I will say that the game was lop sided and that Hamilton is indeed a doormat, but still I was not overly impressed with Trinity.. Did they have talented players, yes. But I only have that game to judge. 
Quite frankly when it comes to comparisons....as stated before- we just don't have that ability because of the rules of the league.
Look- im not trying to argue with you, My opinion is what it is, as is yours.
We will agree to disagree.

[lumbercat]

Fisher alum -
All you points are fair and I know your program is excellent- one of the best.
I enjoyed the discussion. Hope you another great year.