Messiah -- D1?

[PaulNewman]

I'm guessing this has been discussed before, but after perusing Messiah's incoming recruiting class that at a minimum reads like the haul of a D1 mid-major I'm just wondering if Messiah has ever contemplated a move to D1.  I don't know if they have other sports that are at a similar level to the soccer programs, but even if not, there is certainly precedence of Northeastern D3s having D1 hockey programs (Union, which just won the D1 hockey title, St Lawrence, etc). 

[jknezek]

Not allowed to split divisions anymore. Teams in lax and hockey that are doing it were grandfathered in. Messiah would have to move all sports and that doesn't even touch on the complete paradigm shift necessary in the athletic department. Scholarships and compliance are very expensive.

[PaulNewman]

The Ivies don't have athletic scholarships, and there are plenty of other D1s that don't have a lot of scholarship money to offer.  Are you suggesting that Messiah doesn't have the resources to support D1 programming?  Obviously Messiah  in D3 competition has a huge advantage (dare I say unfair?) with a full roster of D1-level recruits.

[jknezek]

The Ivies don't have athletic scholarships, and there are plenty of other D1s that don't have a lot of scholarship money to offer.  Are you suggesting that Messiah doesn't have the resources to support D1 programming?  Obviously Messiah  in D3 competition has a huge advantage (dare I say unfair?) with a full roster of D1-level recruits.

Messiah ain't no Ivy. It's not really a Patriot League school either. Messiah is a D3 type university that happens to be unbelievably good at soccer. This isn't European football leagues with promotion and demotion, this is pick a league and win it. D3 has tons of dynasty programs throughout the sports. Check out wrestling, swimming, football... they all have long-time dominant programs. These schools choose through their mission and values to be part of D3. Going to D1 is not just about finding better competition, it's a complete philosophy change. See McMurry's failed attempt to go D2 which lasted less than 18 months.

Messiah has a moderate endowment of 120 million or so. It's a lot of money, but it's not a very big endowment even for D3. Certainly it's respectable, but Washington and Lee is over 1.2 billion, Amherst, Emory, Grinnell, Swarthmore, MIT, Carnegie Mellon, Washington University, Case Western, and Johns Hopkins are all over a billion and some much larger. That doesn't really have much to do with it either, as huge amounts of those funds are earmarked for academic scholarships, professor endowments, and building maintenance and the capital funds and the interest those funds generate are not available for something as plebeian as athletics.

Just because Messiah has the kids to play at a D1 level in one sport, which is likely, doesn't have anything to do with whether it makes sense to move up as a whole. The ramifications and expenses across the entire college of such a move are massive.

As for it being unfair, that's just... well any word I pick is likely to be offensive. History, coaching, recruiting and facilities are what breeds champions. Messiah has them because they have devoted the time, resources, and have had a little luck that some choices worked our extremely well. None of that is unfair. They are just better at soccer, and have the history to make the school attractive. It is up to the other D3 schools to make the same investments, have a little luck, and drag Messiah back to the pack. It's not up to Messiah to either leave because they are too good or to limit themselves to give others a chance. Not everyone deserves a trophy, contrary to how youth sports seems to be run these days.

[PaulNewman]

Fair enough I suppose, although I don't buy the financial argument at least as far as you went (and you said the endowment really isn't that relevant), and I also wonder if the schools that have dynasty-type programs in other sports are filled with athletes who truly would be competitive at the D1 level in the way Messiah would be in soccer.  I doubt the latter.

Your last sentence is something that gets bandied about a lot, and I'm not sure why.  Athletics and academics (as in admissions) have never been more competitive so I don't know if the trophies for all bit is some kind of political slip.  Taking you literally, why not open up the national championships to all divisions and run them like Indiana and Kentucky high school basketball used to do with one tournament for all schools regardless of size or division?

At any rate, we can quibble back and forth about what exact word to use.  The situation with soccer at Messiah certainly is unique (and I understand the mission is unique along with the other Christian-centered D3s), but I thought to comment on it right after I saw the atypical (for D3) D1-style press release on the incoming recruiting class.

[jknezek]

Fair enough I suppose, although I don't buy the financial argument at least as far as you went (and you said the endowment really isn't that relevant), and I also wonder if the schools that have dynasty-type programs in other sports are filled with athletes who truly would be competitive at the D1 level in the way Messiah would be in soccer.  I doubt the latter.

Your last sentence is something that gets bandied about a lot, and I'm not sure why.  Athletics and academics (as in admissions) have never been more competitive so I don't know if the trophies for all bit is some kind of political slip.  Taking you literally, why not open up the national championships to all divisions and run them like Indiana and Kentucky high school basketball used to do with one tournament for all schools regardless of size or division?

At any rate, we can quibble back and forth about what exact word to use.  The situation with soccer at Messiah certainly is unique (and I understand the mission is unique along with the other Christian-centered D3s), but I thought to comment on it right after I saw the atypical (for D3) D1-style press release on the incoming recruiting class.

I happen to be online when you responded so I'll simply say that big-time press release attempts aren't all that unique to Messiah, though they seem to be less common in soccer than in football or basketball. On the football boards here you'll see people bandying about h.s. player credentials and what they mean for incoming freshman in a way that used to only be done in D1.

As for financials, you just can't ignore the costs of running a D1 program. Most schools have extra coaches, larger recruiting budgets, they are required to have more compliance staff, tutors, bigger travel budgets and facilities. All of these are ancillary to scholarships. You need the money to come from somewhere and, as I pointed out, Messiah's endowment isn't more than mediocre for a D3 school.

Finally moving up means Messiah loses a huge recruiting tool. In D3 they are a big fish in a small pond and can talk about competing for national championships every year. In D1 they won't make that pitch as it stands now. They MIGHT get the same athletes, or those athletes might like the idea of being big fish in small ponds rather than a small or medium fish in big ponds. Once you start losing, you lose that recruiting tool and that mystique. What they have now works on so many levels, earning the school recognition a lot of faceless D1 schools never get. How familiar are you with Monmouth University in Long Branch NJ? For a few years they were ranked in men's soccer, one of the greatest U.S. women's players of all time, Christie Rampone, is a soccer alumni, and yet the school is middling in D1 most of the time. Mid-major is a kind description for most sports, and it doesn't have a lot to set it apart other than the original Annie movie was filmed on campus a few decades ago. Why would Messiah give up its recognition and recruiting edges in D3 to become more like the hundreds of Monmouth Universities scattered across the D1 landscape?

Messiah isn't all that unique among D3 dynasties. Mount Union, Kenyon, Wartburg, UWW and others all dominate a sport. Kenyon in swimming is stupidly ahead of Messiah in the dominance game, so far they make Messiah look like a flash in the pan. There are others as well but that doesn't mean they should move up.

As for your reductio ad absurdum for combining all divisions it's as ludicrous as the latin implies. The divisions play by different rules. Only MLB attempts to have a championship among teams playing with different rules (designated hitter). Setting aside MLB's stupidity, D1 and D3 are different, so they have different championships. That has nothing to do with everyone getting a trophy and everything to do with playing the same game under the same rules. And Indiana no longer has an all size tournament. Even they put that idea to bed over 15 years ago.

To sum everything up, there isn't a single good argument for Messiah to change divisions other than your comment that they are too good and put out a D1 press release. Pretty weak in the face of the actual facts of collegiate sports.

[PaulNewman]

I know that would be absurd.  I was responding to your trophy comment which had no place in the discussion to begin with.

You did this clarify quite well why Messiah wouldn't want to change.  It's working great for them, and it's working great for them in part because of the unique way they are situated in the collegiate athletic landscape.

The Kenyon argument doesn't work.  Few if any of their swimmers would be seriously competitive at the D1 level.

You were pretty reductive in your closing.  It's not just that they are "too good" and have a D1-style press release.  This isn't a case of a team having 2-4 kids who could have played D1 or having a couple of D1 transfers.  They have a full roster of D1 level players.  They are a D1 team playing D3 soccer.  Again, very different than Kenyon swimming and I'm guessing your other examples in other sports as well.

[jknezek]

I know that would be absurd.  I was responding to your trophy comment which had no place in the discussion to begin with.

You did this clarify quite well why Messiah wouldn't want to change.  It's working great for them, and it's working great for them in part because of the unique way they are situated in the collegiate athletic landscape.

The Kenyon argument doesn't work.  Few if any of their swimmers would be seriously competitive at the D1 level.

You were pretty reductive in your closing.  It's not just that they are "too good" and have a D1-style press release.  This isn't a case of a team having 2-4 kids who could have played D1 or having a couple of D1 transfers.  They have a full roster of D1 level players.  They are a D1 team playing D3 soccer.  Again, very different than Kenyon swimming and I'm guessing your other examples in other sports as well.

You have no idea if they have D1 kids or if Kenyon's swim team has D1 kids. You just "know" soccer and believe the kids Messiah has are D1 soccer players. Lots of "can't miss" prospects miss every year. That's the way the game goes. As for your statement above about a whole team being D1 that just is another way of saying what I typed. You think they are too good for D3 and so they should think about not being D3. That's weak tea. If they got the D1 level kids by playing by D3 rules, then they are D3 and they aren't too good or a whole team at the wrong level. They are simply the best in D3. It's just a bad argument any way you try and phrase it. They have better kids so they shouldn't be here. That's not how D3 has ever worked and it is just spilled milk to keep going at it with different words.

[PaulNewman]

I guess you win, especially since somehow you have intuited I have no knowledge of what I'm talking about.  The above is the first time in the interchange that you questioned whether they in fact have a roster primarily of D1 level players, and I do, in fact, have knowledge of the Kenyon swimming program.  At any rate, the topic arose for because obviously I believe Messiah has a great program and it's mostly a compliment to say Messiah could compete at the D1 level.  Until next time.

[KnightFalcon]

Good discussion guys ... Also, I found it interesting that in the "2014 surprise team" discussion, the talk was about how you can't believe the claims of who is a "heavily recruited D1 player". Seems that caution would apply here too. I don't think Messiah's success is predicated solely on having better players - they play many teams that have players just as athletically gifted or more so, so there has to be more going on there.

BTW - where is the "press release" of their 2014 class? Is it just on their website?

[jknezek]

I guess you win, especially since somehow you have intuited I have no knowledge of what I'm talking about.  The above is the first time in the interchange that you questioned whether they in fact have a roster primarily of D1 level players, and I do, in fact, have knowledge of the Kenyon swimming program.  At any rate, the topic arose for because obviously I believe Messiah has a great program and it's mostly a compliment to say Messiah could compete at the D1 level.  Until next time.

I'm questioning anyone being able to tell, from an incoming freshman class, how good those players really are. Considering how many can't misses miss and how many kids slip through the cracks that could play at higher schools, it is extremely unlikely to believe that Messiah's whole incoming class is D1 level.

I also think you overestimate your knowledge of Kenyon's swim team. I just pulled times from the championship meets in D1 and D3. In a small sample of events Kenyon's top swimmer would have finished inside the top 50 at the D1 championship in the following events:

500 freestyle
50 yard freestyle
200 yard medley
200 yard freestyle
100 yard breast.

That was 5 of the first 13 men's events where the Kenyon swimmer's time would have had them invited to the D1 championship and perform admirably. Kenyon didn't win all those events, in fact they only won the 200 yard free of the times listed, but all of those kids could have performed at the D1 level. They wouldn't have been champions, but they would have easily been mid-major for swimming. I stopped at that point believing that the data proves my point. I will say the relay teams were well of the pace of the D1 schools, but that is understandable. Hard to get a full relay team of D1 championship meet quality in D3, but I don't think Messiah would be in the final four of the D1 College Cup either.

D1 level talent is scattered throughout D3. Messiah just seems to get the most out of these kids in soccer on a regular basis.

[PaulNewman]

Check the website.  Read like D1 level recruits to me.

And you're correct, KnightFalcon, there is more to it in the sense that they are impeccably coached, exude tremendous chemistry, and play beautiful yet very attacking soccer the right way.  A pleasure to watch.

[Saint of Old]

Messiah is good because of Tradition.

They were one of the best teams we had to go through to win.

This was before they had won their first title, and already, the alums were strong, and the program focused on preaching History to the Current players. A Championship team needs strong Alums. This is why it seems year in and out the same teams participate in the dance.
The biggest part of the year is not November, its April/May when the alums pour gasoline on the fire that has been burning and the new recruits come in to assist in the blaze!

Alums are a program. Stronger the Alums, stronger the program.

[KnightFalcon]

I think you are on to something there ... I hear the annual Messiah Alumni game against the current varsity squad is a major event on the calendar for both sets of players. And there is typically a very sizeable group of alumni present at NCAA tournament games as well.

[lastguyoffthebench]

http://pdl.uslsoccer.com/home/804947.html

Messiah and the PDL:

Midfielder Jeremy Payne, midfielder Brain Ramirez, defender Josh Kremers, midfielder Danny Rowe, and defender Matt Kyne round out the five who will join a solid core of King's Warriors' returnees for 2014.